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Monday, August 04, 2008

TITHING: IT IS A GOOD PLACE TO START

DIALOG: BAPTIST PASTOR AND RUSS KELLY

“The issue of tithing 10% is simple.”

Comment: It is so complex that Southern Baptists and other leaders will not even discuss with their lesser educated members, much less than with me.

“I believe that it is a starting point for the New Testament Christian.”

Comment: “I believe” is opinion and does not make something sound doctrine.

“I know that the command to tithe is an Old Covenant Law but when we compare Law vs. Grace, Grace always does more compared to the Law and never less than the law.”

Comment: This is a sneaky comment which is based on false assumptions: (1) that everybody in the OT was required to tithe and (2) that everybody began their giving level at 10%.

First, only farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel were required to tithe and to begin their giving level at 10% of food. Tithes were not acceptable from Gentiles or pagan lands and your preacher cannot honestly deny those facts.

Second, although money was common even in Genesis and was required for worship it was never included in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
Third, as inheritance laws pushed many off the lands early, most became day-laborers or worked trades in the cities.
Carpenters (Jesus), fisherman (Peter) and tentmakers (Paul) had nothing tithe-able and could not tithe.

Therefore it is dishonest to make people think that everybody in the OT began their giving leval and ten per cent and it means that Christians should also.

“Jesus' sacrificial death ushered in the the New Covenant of Grace and His death was above and beyond any Old Covenant Law.”

Comment: Jesus sacrificial death ended the Old Covenant, changes its priesthood and temple to the individual believer and ended the wall of ceremonial worship statutes such as tithing which separated Jews from Gentile. The two were reconciled by destroying the statutes of separation.

“Jesus told us not to store up treasures for ourselves on Earth where rust and moths destroy but to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven where rust and moths do not destroy. (my paraphrase).”

Comment: That is sort or sanctimonious. The preacher has the most to gain from a tithing church.

“For me, I want God to bless me with more not so that my standard of living can keep going up, but so I can give more to support His work through the local church and around the world.”

Comment: Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to tithe in Mt 23:23 because he was discussing “matters of the law” and the law was still in full effect. He could not have told his Gentile disciples to do so.

There are 25 tithing principles in the OT and the church follows NONE of them. Why? The OT tithe-recipient was not allowed to own or inherit property? Who changed that law? The OT worshipper was to be killed for touching a Levite or priest who was paid with tithes in Num 3:10? Who changed that law? What justification does he have to discard everything called holy and most holy in Leviticus except tithing? That is not right.

“I would recommend reading the "Treasure Principle" by Randy Alcorn”

Comment: Read my rebuttal of
Alcorn’s logic at http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id57.html. That is where you pastor got his argument. Alcorn refused to debate me in Christianity Today.

“My concern in this issue is as you can see that he says grace always does more the law. He then explain this Sunday from the pulpit this statement by giving an example of the Old Testament sacrifices animals and he is staying the New Testament did more and sacrifice a human.

Now this statement does not sit well with my spirit. Can you tell me what your take on this statement ?

Comment: See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id119.html
In Him,

He will show his true heart by refusing to have you monitor a discussion with me. I will guarantee that from past experience.

See also http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id105.html

Russ Kelly

1 comment:

Jorgie said...

Umm...what about a church that doesn't have a paid ministry? The tithes in the LDS church are used almost entirely for building new churches or other buildings of worship, printing materials provided free to those interested, and to pay the salary of a very limited full time employees of the church. Another portion is used to maintain the church functions and some is invested to provide ongoing support to the church. You commented on my blog that I was an extortionist and say that Christ did away with the Old Covenant by dying on the cross, but Peter, Paul and the rest of the Apostles tithed the believers. Tithing is for me a way to show my commitment to God and his kingdom and a not only good place to start, but a good end.