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Friday, October 02, 2009

Reply to Puritan Lad of Covenant Theology 3

Reply to Lad at Covenant Theology -3

Lad: You continue to try to tie the tithe to the Mosaic Covenant, and have still failed to do so

Russ: I have succeeded to prove my point by proving texts from God's Word which describe tithes as part of the ceremonial worship cultic laws of statutes and ordinance. On the other hand you have provided no valid argument to explain away my texts.

Lad: I have established in Hebrews 7. Verses 12, 18, and 19 do not "disprove" anything, as they deal only with the ceremonial aspects of the law,

Russ: Hebrews 7:5 is the first use of "commandment," "law" and "tithes" in Hebrews. Therefore common sense demands that the "change of the law" in 7:12 absolutely must at the very least include tithing from 7:5. How can you deny that? What was the "change"? The "commandment going before" of tithing from 7:5 was "disannulled" in 7:18.

Lad: and the tithe was not ceremonial but moral (robbery), and thus lasts until heaven and earth pass away.

Russ: Define "law" so I will know where you are coming from. Violation of any of the commandments, statutes and judgments was SIN and was punishable. According to your logic, we should still be observing all 600 of them.

Lad: The fact that the tithe only applied to Israel in the Old Covenant is irrelevant (unless I were arguing for tithe outside of the authority of the church, for Israel is the church (in both Old and New Covenants).

Russ: So you think! True biblical tithes could not be accepted from defiled pagan dust outside of Israel. True or not? If true, then your argument that all of God's law also applied to the Gentiles is false.

Lad: It was Israel only who received God's revealed will. In the Old Covenant, Israel typified the church, and anyone in the Old Covenant who was redeemed had to become a Jew (Exodus 12:48), but there was one law for both the stranger and the native of the land (Exodus 12:49).

Russ: Have you ever red Exodus 12:49? "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." The text does not include all Gentiles. It ly says that those Gentiles who chose to live in and among the Hebrew community must abide by its laws.

Lad: As Israel was the church in the Old Covenant, why do we assume that they lose authority to take up tithe in the New Covenant?

Russ: Israel was God's assembly in the Old Covenant but it was far from being the mysterious body of Christ in which the Holy Spirit permanently lived. If you are going to press the tithing law into the church, then you should press all of the tithing law into the New Covenant. You should (1) give tithes to the servants of the ministers, (2) only give one per cent to the ministers, (3) only allow ministers into the sanctuary, (4) define tithes as only food from inside Israel and (5) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly as demanded in Numbers 18. Why don't you comment on these tithe requirements?

Lad: What God considered to be sinful in Israel was not tolerated just over the state line, nor did God's Holy law begin with it's revelation to Moses.

Russ: Tithing could not come from just over the state line and Sabbath keeping was not commanded to Gentiles who lived over the state line. God did not reveal himself as Yahweh to the Gentiles as their special covenant God.

Lad: Christ also paid tithe, for he was born under the law, and fulfilled the law.

Russ: Where do you find this in the Bible? Christ and Joseph earned their livelihood as carpenters and the products of carpentry were not tithe-able.

Lad: He also commanded the Pharisees to tithe (see above), and then told his disciples to observe and do whatever the Pharisees told them, but to avoid their hypocrisy (Matthew 23:2-3).

Russ: He could not have told his Gentile disciples to tithe because it was illegal. He also did not command Gentiles whom he healed to show themselves to the priests and to offer the offering Moses commanded.

Lad: In the New Covenant, that which Jesus commanded His disciples is to be observed by "all nations" (Matthew 28:19-20).Russ: Matthew 28:19-20 is after Calvary. It is part of the New Covenant. It is a new commission.

Lad: Regarding the fact that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek (a theophany of Christ) was superior, the Scripture itself tells us that, particularly verses 5-7. What else needs to be said there?

Russ: You invent theology when you say that Abraham's tithe was superior to the tithe of the law. It was not. The tithe of the law was holy and could only come from inside God's holy land. Repeating your view 1000 times does not change that fact. Tithe teachers never get past Hebrews 7:10 and ignore the conclusion reached in 7:12 and 7:18, 19.

Lad: I never suggested that this was a commandment for the church to take tithe, for that is commanded in other places. This was an answer to your question about who has the right beside a Levite to take a tithe. The answer is Christ, who is superior to the human priesthood, for His priesthood is forever.

Russ: Hebrews 7:12 clearly states that there is "of necessity a change of the law" (of tithing from 7:5) and that change was to "disannul" the "commandment going before" of tithing from 7:5. How clear can it be?

Lad: Finally, I never said that 1 Corinthians teaches that "the church is to be supported IN THE SAME WAY IN EVERY ASPECT as was the Old Covenant Temple". The statement addresses how those who minister the gospel should live, and the answer is "in the same way" as "those who are employed in the temple service" (the tithe).

Russ: You only see "tithing" in 7:13 when it includes far more. Read your statement again several times. If "in the same way" only refers to 7:13, then it must include ALL methods of support included in 7:13 and that goes far beyond tithes. Your argument is self-defeating.

Lad: The New Testament commands tithing, and continuously puts it's stamp of approval on the practice.

Russ: Where are your texts that the New Testament commands tithing as part of the New Covenant after Calvary?

Lad: Malachi writes, "Will a man rob God?" That is the question that I will ask you and Gary. If God owns it, we are obligated to render it to Him. It is really that smple

Russ: The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Do you think that God owes you a blessing for tithing when you are at the same time violating the other 600 laws? Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Clearly Galatians 3:10-13 replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for those who were under the law.

Lad: The tithe belongs to the Lord,

Russ: Everything in the book of Leviticus belonged to the Lord because it was either holy or most holy. Why don't you teach that?

Lad: the burden of proof is on you to show that the Lord and His Church have relinquished ownership of the tithe in the New Covenant.

Russ: You are hypocritical if you do not obey all of the tithing law from Numbers 18. The burden of proof is on you to prove (1) that the tithe is not limited to food from inside Israel and (2) that modern ministers can have their cake and eat it too -- they can receive the "tithe" and also be property owners.

1 comment:

Trogladyte said...

Whether the Lord relinquished the tithe or not is irrevelant. The burden of proof is on those who say the Church is obligated to tithe when Numbers 18 is clear that people living outside the boundaries of Israel were not obligated to tithe and the Levites were not to receive the tithe from those living outside Israel's borders.

Jesus did indeed commend the Pharisee for tithing, and did tell him that the tithing was to be done. But,... notice in Christ's commendations of what was tithed, money was not mentioned at all. If money was tithable, surely Christ would have mentioned that the Pharisee tithed it, or would have reproved him for not tithing it.

The storehouse never became the Church-house. Read carefully the context of Malachi and one will see that when God promised to open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing, He was speaking of rain to bring more crops... not finances. God wanted the Levite's to bring the tithe of the crops, flocks, and herds into the storehouse 'that there may be meat in mine house.' It was not the nations outside of Israel that were robbing God, it was the Levites! The other nations were not required to tithe at all per the requirements set forth by God in Numbers 18.