Reply to John D, 12-25-09

John: I made a comment about parts of the OT still applying today. Russell replied as follows…“NONE of them apply to Christians as "Thou Shalt NOts" and none of them were given as such to the Church. Born-again Christians are "new creations" in Christ and have the indwelling Holy Spirit; The "Thou Shalt Nots" have been replaced by "as a new creation you will not …"”This is simply squabbling over words. More specifically KJV words which are different in other translations. This is secondary to the principle that I was arguing which still holds true: murder is still a sin, coveting is still a sin, we are still expected to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and we are still expected to love our neighbor as our self. That does still apply. And what do you mean by “as a new creation you WILL not” ??………………………………….
Reply by Russ: Your first and last sentences in the last paragraph tell me that you do not understand the difference between the Old and New Covenant.
(1a) The Old was only commanded to national Israel.
(1b) The New is for believers in the Church after Calvary.
(1c) Those Gentiles in the Old who did not join Israel via circumcision were not under any part of the Old --including the Ten Commandments. Israel did not KILL Gentiles living in its land because they worshipped idols.
(2a) The Old was to God's unique exalted nation which was to be above and more blessed than other nations through obedience to all of God's laws.
(2b) The New is to all believers in the Church.
(3a) The Old did not involved the indwelling Holy Spirit. God simply told them what NOT to do such as "Thou shalt not kill."
(3b) The New involves born-again believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Their obedience is the result of a new nature. Because they are children of God with a new nature of obedience their obedience is to be spontaneous.
(4a) Sin is disobeying God by violating any part of his law, whether it be commandments, statutes or judgments.
(4b) Sin is not believing in Jesus Christ (Jn 16:8-9) and not learning and growing through knowledge of God in Christ (2 Cor 3:18).………………………………….
John: From this principle argued above I made a point that just because things like a commandment against murder still applies it does not mean EVERY part of the OT applies such as killing children.
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Russ: Again I ask you to define the way you understand "law." You do not have a single text which proves that God will judge the OT Gentiles because the disobeyed the OT Law. They will be judged because they disobeyed the eternal moral character of God which is found in nature and conscience per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16. Again, I ask for your hermeneutic (principle of interpretation) for deciding what part of the OT applies (Honor thy father and thy mother) and what part does not apply (Kill disobedient children per Ex 21:15, 17). You have not done so.
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John: The reason I can biblically claim this to be true is that commandments exist in the NT against such things as murder and coveting (which means these concepts still apply) and commandments for the greatest commandment and the golden rule are in the NT as well (which means these concepts also still apply).
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Russ: You are guilty of subdividing the law and discarding most of its statutes and judgments (except, of course, tithing). How do you explain Mt 5:19? Matt 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
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John: Just because there is not a “THOU SHALT NOT” in front of them has nothing to do with the principle I am arguing.
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Russ: It has everything to do with whom the law applied to. According to Exodus 19:5-9 and almost every chapter in Deuteronomy 'THOU' only refers to national Israel. God did not command the Gentiles to join Israel and enter into its worship and judicial system. God never commanded Israel to use TITHES to evangelize the Gentiles. How can you reconcile that?
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John: ******** I wonder if I explained these two paragraphs earlier we could have avoided much of this back-and-forth?? It’s very easy for arguments to arise when we communicate via text only because 2 people can speak using the same terms and mean 2 completely different things. Language itself is always somewhat subjective.
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Russ: We are NOT using the same terms. You are attempting to teach tithing by defining "law" as "the Ten Commandments minus Sabbath plus tithing and whatever else I want to add." On the other hand I define "law" as "an indivisible whole covenant given only to Israel in order to separate them from all other nations."
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John: I agree but not to the point you are arguing it. It is all or none in the sense of, if we break one commandment we are guilty of breaking it all (Gal. 3:10, James 2:10).
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Russ: You cannot possibly extend this comparison to the entire law. "If we break one commandment" does not apply to (1) commandments to include statutes-ordinances of ceremonial worship ritual, (2) commandments to establish the sanctuary according to God's pattern for worship, (3) commandments to establish a Levitical and Aaronic hierarchy to be paid with tithes from the produce of God's holy land. Galatians 3:10 shows the futility of placing Gentiles under any part of the OT law. James 2:10 is about the "royal law" which refers to the underlying character of God and not the OT Law.
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John: These verses refer not only to the Law of Moses but to any Law that anyone is under at the time they live – i.e. the Law written on the heart for those with general revelation only (Romans 2:14-15),
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Russ: I disagree. If Galatians 3:10 refers to Christian Gentiles and their obedience to the laws of nature and conscience, then you have destroyed Paul's entire argument from 1:8-9; 3:1, 19, 24-26. It makes the 'paidagogee' comments gibberish.
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John: Law of Moses for OT Israelites, New Covenant Law for us.
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Russ: Law of Moses ONLY for OT Israelites. New Covenant law of love for all believers per Romans 8:2.
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John: Therefore God demands PERFECTION (Matt. 5:48, Gal. 3:10, Rom. 3:20) and our only way to eternal life is by GRACE through faith in Christ (Rom. 3:28).
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Russ: Matthew 5:48 is the culmination of 5:17-47 which is addressed to a Jewish audience and is a kingdom sermon before Calvary. The context of Mt 5:19-20 is obedience to all three parts of the OT Law --read the examples.
Romans 3:20 uses the word "law" from Rom 3:1-19 to include Isaiah and Psalms because the Ten Commandments are not quoted. Paul did not limit the use of the word "law".
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John: ... We still have a law that we must abide by… namely the New Covenant commands. Some of these commands are the same as some of the OT commands. This is what I mean when I say parts of the OT law still apply. ..
Russ: Frankly, I think you are easing up on some of your earlier statements. Some of the commands in the US Constitution are similar to commands in the English Bill of Rights, but that does not mean that they simply continued to exist under the same authority and conditions. Do not forget the original argument is that you supported TITHING based on the OLD Covenant. My argument is that it is not supported by New Covenant principles.
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John: … God’s demand of perfection is the reason Gal. 3:10 states that all who rely on observing the law are under a curse. This is simply a restatement of Romans 3:20 which says that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law. Paul is trying to contrast LAW as a way of salvation to GRACE as a way of salvation.
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Russ: You just said "We still have a law that we must abide by… namely the New Covenant commands."
Paul is NOT "trying to contrast LAW as a way of salvation." Paul was trying to say that the OT LAW has no place whatsoever in the gospel.

Gal 3:3-5
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.