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Friday, April 08, 2011

Second Reply to Pastor J D Greear

Greear: Where I see you primarily in error is your complete divorcing of the law from the Christian life.

Kelly: You have no right to say this because you will not disclose what hermeneutic you use to bring the Old Covenant Law over into the New Covenant. Again, the consistent dispensational hermeneutic allows us to use that part of the law which is repeated after Calvary to the church in terms of the New Covenant. That, my friend, has the blessings of the Holy Spirit. You, on the other hand, struggle with the “no glory” concept of 2 Cor 3:10 without a consistent hermeneutic.

Greear: The law is no longer binding over us

Kelly: It never was binding on us Gentiles. This shows a fundamental misunderstand of the Law.

Greear: … but it is still a helpful tutor to understand who God is and how we work in the world.

Kelly: I don’t deny that, but neither do I send my wife away for a week every month as the law requires.

Greear: I think yours reflects an overly dispensational approach to the Bible which too neatly brackets Old and New Testament.

Kelly: Without a consistent hermeneutic, you the pastor becomes the ultimate god who decides what part of the law can be compelled upon his congregation and that causes mass confusion among Baptists.

Greear: I also think that how we see what our attitude toward generosity is to be when we’re in the midst of hardship is different.

Kelly: Amen. First Timothy 5:8 must not be in your Bible and neither is Acts 20:35.

Greear: I see that, in some ways, almost everybody that I talk with is in some kind of financial hardship, and I would never encourage somebody to stop being generous when they feel like things are tight.

Kelly: Now you are over-reacting.

Greear: That is what I think the principle of first fruits teaches us is that we honor God first.

Kelly: That does not give you permission to make the truly needy feel inadequate if they cannot give.

Greear: My main problem, Russ, is not what you write, it’s the spirit in which you write. It is hateful, it is arrogant, and it is not helpful for the discussion. It is beneath how Christian brothers should speak to one another. I hope that you and I can discuss this at some point in the future, but with a spirit that believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and is reflective of the patience and generosity of Christ.

Kelly: I have a special calling from God to rid the church of this shackle of the law. If you knew me, you would see a generous loving caring person who gives far more than most. I am compassionate and have a sense of humor and I never meet somebody that I cannot make my friend. Just watch my videos and see my demeanor. There is a 90 minute live TV debate presently being posted on You Tube from Revelation TV in London. See my site for details. On the other hand, your first post reflects many arrogant, hateful and seemingly callous remarks about the poor.

Greear: I wish you well and hope the wisdom and insight that God has given you can be a blessing to churches throughout the United States, starting with ours.

Kelly: They are and continue to increase.
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Instead of addressing any of my biblical points, you attack me. What kind of scholarship it that? Is that the way you defend your doctrine? I really don’t care what you think of me; I do care how you use God’s Word; that is your real calling.

The following are added comments to your first post. I really would appreciate an in-depth analysis and rebuttal of my comments from your first post.

1. Define tithing.
2. We as Gentiles never were under the Old Covenant law.
3. You make no effort to explain how hundreds of parts of the law have been discarded but tithing remains.

Greear: as it relates to the tithe, the law reveals the unchanging character of God and how He expects us to view the money HE has provided for us.

Kelly: You accuse of writing with a hateful arrogant spirit. What, sir, is this arrogance which forces your interpretation upon others?

4. Again, you provide no texts to validate your opinion. “I see” is your “arrogant” text.

Greear: A minimum of 10 percent that He has given to us, whether we are rich or poor, is to go back into His work.

Kelly: This is arrogant. While the sick welfare mother tithes first, you are the greatest benefactor of her misinformed giving. Where are your texts?

Greear: This is how He set up the world order. This is why the "tithe" principle (the first 10 percent of income going into God's work) is taught pre-law (Abraham)

Kelly: This is arrogant and misguided. Where are your textual arguments?

Greear: and even affirmed under Jesus (Matthew 23:23).

Kelly: Where did Jesus teach that widows and the needy should give the first ten per cent of their income to you as a tithe? This is both arrogant and hateful.

Greear: but how God has set up His economy for His people has not changed.

Kelly: If the church is His people Israel, you should teach 23%.

Greear: The law was given to help people live in the shalom of God.

Kelly: The law never commanded the poor destitute widow to tithe her SS check.

Greear: Thus, the idea that 10 percent of all that God gives to you is given for you to give back to Him remains, I believe, as a good guide to our giving.

Kelly: This is a hateful arrogant lie.

Greear: Now, let me be clear -- Jesus left us under NO PART of the law, not the tithe or anything else.

Kelly: But JD does arrogantly.

Greear: But the law, in that it reflects God's character and His ordering of creation, is still good, and still functions as a guide to how we are to live under God in this world.

Kelly: While attacking my strong dispensational stance, you have no consistent hermeneutic other than your own opinion. It is not your fault entirely. The SBC had not produced a good hermeneutic textbook which consistently explains how to bring material from the Old Covenant into the New.

Greear: For Gospel-touched people, tithing should never be the ceiling of their giving, but it should be the floor.

Kelly: “It should be the floor”!!! This is an outright deliberate high-handed presumptuous willful LIE without a single Bible text for validation. It is motivated by greed and it is damming the Southern Baptist Convention to teach it.

Greear: That said, "giving our firstfruits to God" most definitely is a biblical principle, true of God's people in all places and at all times.

Kelly: Yes, but you erroneously equate firstfruits with tithes.

2 comments:

Big B said...

To accuse Dr. Russel Kelly of arrogance is to show that one has not met him. He is kind, he is down to earth and he does not use fancy manipulative speech, he speaks plainly.

jm said...

I used to go to the Summit and sadly everything you say about JD Greear is true. However, he is definitely Christian. He became a senior pastor at the age of 29 so unfortunately he probably didn't know how to handle the power that God gave him. Still I'm hopeful that someday he'll greatly mature.