Tuesday, March 16, 2010

Tithing: Change Wortk Making, 3-16-10; 4 PM

Tithing: Change Worth Making, 3-16-2010; 4 PM
Change Worth Making, 3-16-2010; 4 P:M EST

CWM: I do not challenge, or disagree with any interpretation that you’ve made concerning the OT Tithe.

Russ: That simply does not make sense because your writing strongly supports the doctrine I oppose. Why will you not take a position and defend it?

CWM: We are to always use our free will to do as God pleases, in every thing.

Russ: In order to “do as God pleases,” we need to take a firm hand on what we believe and be willing to defend it. Isn’t that what Jesus, Peter and Paul did? I seriously doubt that any of them would say “I do not challenge, or disagree with any interpretation that you’ve made concerning the OT Tithe” if they really did.

CWM: Where then does the tithe come in? Let’s use one of your scenarios. Two men. 1 farmer inside of Israel, under the law. 1 carpenter outside of Israel under grace. The Lord instructs the farmer to “tithe the increase of his grain.” Simple to understand.

Russ: Are you agreeing with me that true HOLY biblical tithes are always only food from inside Israel? If so, why don’t you clearly say so?

CWM: The Lord instructs the carpenter outside of Israel under grace, “to Freely give.” – Simple to understand.

Russ: I would say that the carpenter could either be inside or outside of Israel and could still be under the law. However the law did not define his gift as a tithe whether inside or outside Israel.

CWM: Now the Carpenter outside of Israel in his free will, has a choice.

Russ: Why not place him inside Israel as was Jesus? It makes no difference because the tithing law still did not apply to him.

CWM: He can make up his number, and choose his own amount, which he obviously has the freedom to do. OR, He can rightly say, “How much of what I have would God want me to give? or, where do I begin?”

Russ: In the OT God asked for freewill offerings to build both the tent-sanctuary and the Temple. In one occasion they gave so much SACRIFICIALLY that God had to command them to STOP giving. This is called freewill SACRIFICIAL giving. This is “giving beyond one’s ability.” This is “giving until it hurts.” I do this. I have no savings account for the future or emergencies. Yet I give more than ten per cent because I love my church and lost souls.

CWM: And then He says to himself, “Let’s look at the scripture. And he finds, I see here, that when God did have a requirement on giving, he [only] required his farmers to give 10% of their grain increase.”

Russ: Why don’t you pretend that the carpenter asked himself “Why didn’t God require me, a carpenter, to tithe? Could it be because I could boast about what my own hands have made to please God? Could it be that God only wanted a tithe from what HE miraculously increased?”

CWM: “Now what I do know from that? I know that if I were a farmer [or herdsman] under the law, and my giving was to be in grain [and other food] and it was to be 10%” Well then, “I don’t give in grain, but I do give in money? – How much?

Russ: I would conclude that, since God did not tell ME, a carpenter, how much to give, then He has left it up to me to decide. Simple enough.

CWM: I can’t see giving less than a tithe, because I know in that circumstance that was what God required.”

Russ: Illogical. If God had wanted OT craftsmen, tradesman, teachers and the poor to BEGIN their level of giving at ten per cent – then He would have certainly made that clear!!!

CWM: “He says to himself that is “according that a man hath” and it is by an “equality” and I certainly have a willing mind. I’ll begin right there.”

Russ: “According to what a man hath” could mean 30% for me and only 4% for you. It “equals out” means that the rich is not suffering and the poor can still buy essential medicine, food and shelter. Otherwise the church is oppressing the poor.

CWM: That is the proper use of our free will. Because we are free to do something doesn’t mean that it’s right to do it.

Russ: No. You have taken the “free will” out of the equation and replaced it with a commandment that everybody is required to begin his/her giving level at ten per cent.

CWM: Now I say to “knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.”

Russ: A poor widow who must choose to buy medicine and food for her family or give it away should never be made to feel unwelcome in any assembly of Christ’s body. Yet that very thing happens every time it assembles to worship. You should read the horror stories I get in the mail.

CWM: I am not under the context of the law. I am free to give as I see fit.

Russ: As long as you only see fit to begin your level of giving at ten per cent. After freely giving her last income the poor widow in the Bible would have been rejected from many tithe-teaching churches because she had no income left at all.

CWM: I would be wrong if I saw fit to give any other way than through the principles that I see in the law.

Russ: Would you also say “I would be wrong if I saw fit to DISCIPLINE MY CHILDREN any other way than through the principles that I see in the law”? Exodus 21:15, 17 commanded OT Hebrews to KILL disobedient children.

CWM: I doubt that you will see it that way, but nonetheless, I do.

Russ: Let us be civil and continue this conversation without deletions. I will also post it on my blog.

In Christ’s love
Russ Kelly

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