Pages

Monday, September 28, 2009

Reply to Anthony Liebenberg on Tithing, LIfe Groups

Reply to LIFE GROUPS, Anthony Liebenberg, on Tithing
http://www.life-church.co.za/lifegroups/?p=122

GODS PLANNING FOR FINANCIAL BLESSING
LIFE CHURCH, 13 SEPT 09 EDITED

Tony: 2 Corinthians 9:6-11

Russ: This text is never used in the discussion. It is about freewill giving and not tithing.
…………………………..
Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM
1. God established a Covenant with Abraham.
2. Those of us who belong to Christ are the children of Abraham.
3. Three specific things that Abraham did financially.
GENESIS 12 -24: (v1-3), (v7), (v14-18).
GENESIS 15:5, 6
……………………..
Russ: This is an amazing piece of out-of-context twisting of God's Word. The last part of Genesis 12 is totally ignored, yet that is where God financially blessed Abraham after he had lied to Pharaoh.
……………………..
Tony: ABRAHAMS BLESSINGS ARE YOURS
Galatians 3: 7-9, 14-18,29
………………………
Russ: Even more incredible, Tony omits Galatians 3:10-13 where Paul said that Jesus ended the curse of the law and that law keeping cannot bring blessings unless it is total Old Covenant law keeping.

Tony: WE MUST CHOOSE TO OBEY
Deuteronomy 28 Blessings and Curses “1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.
2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:…
“15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:…”

Russ: The only way to be blessed under Old Covenant conditions is to obey all 600+ commands of the law (which is impossible). What is the point of quoting these texts?

Tony: Deuteronomy 30 Choose!
“19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live,…”
We must align ourselves with the ways of God.
Then the blessing of God is ours.

Russ: The New Covenant Church and Gentiles have never been under the Old Covenant of Deuteronomy 30. God is now applying strictly New Covenant principles. Tony is rambling without a coherent consistent hermeneutic.

Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM. Abraham is a pattern for us.

Russ: Abraham is only an example for us when what he did was by faith alone. He is not an example when he lied to Pharaoh or paid mandatory pagan tithes to Melchizedek.

Tony: 1. Abraham tithed

Russ: Nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is an example for Christians: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) not holy tithes from God's holy land, (3) only once, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.

Tony: 2. Abraham walked blameless before God

Russ: In imputed righteousness; not in reality.

Tony: 3. Abraham gave an offering

Russ: His freewill offerings at his stone altars are examples of his faith to be followed.

Tony: 1. Abraham tithed; Genesis 14;a18-20
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.”

Russ: Abraham gave him a tenth of pagan spoils of war.
According to the great majority of Bible commentaries discussing 14:21, pagan Canaanite custom was involved in Abraham's actions in Genesis 14. The Bible does not say that he gave of his own free will.

Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.

Russ: The Bible nowhere says that! True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which been miraculously increased by God's hand from His holy land. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor anybody who lived outside Israel --like us.

Tony: Tithe was before Israel. Tithe was before the law

Russ: Pagan spoils of war ---not holy tithes. Every pagan nation of Abraham's time had tithes, idol worship, child sacrifice and temple prostitution.

Tony: Tithe was re-enforced in the law.

Russ: The two were completely different. One came from pagans and defiled pagan soil. The holy tithe came from God's hand from His holy land.

Tony: Tithing was confirmed by Jesus

Russ: According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law to redeem those under the law. Jesus could not have told his Gentile disciples to tithe.

Tony: The New Testament church tithed

Russ: According to Acts 21:20 the Jewish Christians continued to tithe to the Temple system. There is no text which indicates that the Church ever tithed ot its leaders for many centuries after Calvary.

Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.

Russ: This is not in God's Word.

Tony: Tithe on all your increase

Russ: The OT tithe was food from inside Israel which God had miraculously increased.

Tony: Tithe regularly

Russ: Why do you not obey any of the tithing statute of Numbers 18? (1) food from Israel, (2) Levitical tithe to servants of the ministers, (3) only one per cent to the ministers, (4) only ministers enter the sanctuary, (5) ministers kill anybody else who tries to worship God directly and (6) tithe-recipients forfeit property ownership.

Tony: It is not an offering, it belongs to God

Russ: It belongs to Old Covenant Levites and priests. In the New Covenant all believers are priests and the Temple of God is within each believer.

Tony: If you do not return to God his tithe, how can you expect him to bless you.

Russ: This is not found in the New Covenant to the Church after Calvary.

Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.

Russ: Saying this a million times does not make it true.

Tony: Tithing will protect you financially

Russ: There are tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations and remain in deep poverty.

Tony: Offerings are gifts above our tithe

Russ: This is not part of the New Covenant.

Tony: Begin to bring all your tithe into the church you belong to.

Russ: That means that God is more interested in the money than correct theology. Thus He honors Mormons, JWs, SDAs, Baptists, Methodists, and Pentecostals alike -- as long as they tithe.

Tony: 2. Repent of any and all financial wrongdoing

Russ: Do you own and inherit property in violation of the tithing law?

Tony: Three Key Financial Principles: Tithing : will protect you financially

Russ: God cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to one of over 600 Old Covenant conditional promises.

Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com

3 comments:

Al Sydney said...

To Anthony,From what I read it sounds like you have already made up your mind about tithing.Maybe you are a pastor or not but your arguements gives you away.Can you please explain why Paul said in Hebrews 8:4(NLT)that Jesus can not act or be a priest according to the law of Moses if He was here on earth right now?In other words Jesus can not receive any tithe or any offerings according to the law of Moses because He is not a Levite.Jesus cancelled the old covenant law that enslaved the Jews Galatians 4:24(NLT)Please read Galatians 5:1-12(NLT)I personaly beleive that fear and unbelief is why all these people are trying so hard to defend tithing.We can all enter the most holy place because of Jesus precious blood,we do not have any high priest here on earth under the Levitical priesthood.All Gods blessings and provision is now accesible through faith in Christ only.We all now live by FAITH,that includes pastors too.No faith means no money,job,healing,provisions,peace,rest and all of Gods promises .God is fair what you sow is what you reap.Unbelief is the reason why all these people manipulate scriptures so that they can live of other christians sweat.That is what God said He hates.Stop using Abraham as an example for tithing,if we follow all that Abraham did that means we are allowed to have more than one wife or kill anyone that steal from us and we all need to be circumcised.Stop mixing the law of Moses that enslaved the Jews with Grace and treating Jesus sacrifice as something common.

Anthony Liebenberg said...

Can you imagine my surprise to find on a web search that this fraud of a man has used a sermon of mine and dissected it to look as if i have had a dialogue / debate with him when nothing of the sort has ever occurred. You can imagine my surprise when i read russels blog with my name misrepresented. Shame on you Kelly. I wonder if you do this as a lifestyle. mmmm i wonder. What is obvious to me is you behave like a pharisee and yet you malign the old testament. You have got some serious issues my friend. And by the way stop leaning on your credential, live the incarnate life. You remind of a professional sport spectator. Instead of criticizing come and serve africa, see the changed lives. Jesus still reigns.

Anthony Liebenberg said...

Can you imagine my surprise to find on a web search that this fraud of a man has used a sermon of mine and dissected it to look as if i have had a dialogue / debate with him when nothing of the sort has ever occurred. You can imagine my surprise when i read russels blog with my name misrepresented. Shame on you Kelly. I wonder if you do this as a lifestyle. mmmm i wonder. What is obvious to me is you behave like a pharisee and yet you malign the old testament. You have got some serious issues my friend. And by the way stop leaning on your credential, live the incarnate life. You remind of a professional sport spectator. Instead of criticizing come and serve africa see the changed lives. Jesus still reigns.