Thursday, September 17, 2009

Reply to D Thrasher on Tithing


Tithing Misunderstood (Part One)

Thrash: There are two groups of people in the church. Those who support tithing and those who don’t. Those who don’t, reason, “Since tithing is not specifically mentioned in the New Testament it is not required of God’s people living in these times.”

Kelly: We follow a consistent hermeneutic when brining material from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The Church and Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant. Only that part of the Old Covenant which is eternal and moral had been repeated in the New Covenant after Calvary in terms of grace and faith rather than law -- and tithing is not included.

Thrash: Those who support tithing say, “The New Testament is God expanding upon the Old Testament and everything God instituted in the Old Testament is not only relevant for today, but was expanded upon for the benefit of the people who would undergo the new birth experience.”

Kelly: It is absurd to say that "everything God instituted in th Old Testament [only for national Israel] is not only relevant …" The Church has overwhelming rejected the vast majority fo the Old Covenant law as IRRELEVANT. It does not kill disobedient children, idolaters, Saturday sabbath breakers and adulterers. It does not forbid wearing clothing of mixed fabric, etc, etc, etc. Most of what is called holy and most holy in Leviticus is now called irrelevant.

Thrash: For example; in the gospel of Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17, Jesus had this to say about the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets (prophecies) but to fulfill.” So it is clear Jesus did not come to do away with the law or the prophecies spoken by the prophets of old. But He did say, ”He came to fulfill them.”

Kelly: You do not understand Matthew 5:17-18 because you ignore the fact that 5:19-48 includes ALL three parts of the law -- including the Ten Commandments, statutes and judgments. Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law by his sinless life and set it aside at Calvary when the veil ripped. According to Ephesians 2:13-17, Colossians 2:13-17 and Hebrews 7:18 the law has been abrogated. According to Romans 7:4 believers are dead to the law and the law cannot tell a dead person what to do. According to Romans 8:1-3 the New Covenant law is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death." Believers obey because they are new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Thrash: Here is another thought to chew on. It would have been impossible for Jesus to destroy God’s Word because He is the Word of God (John 1:14) and do away with the Law because He Himself was the Lord God who burnt those laws into a mountainside for Moses to deliver to the Israelites in Exodus chapter twenty.

Kelly: Your logic forces believers to obey all 600+ commandments of the law. Your logic says that NONE of the law has been done away for anybody. Please define the way you use the word "law."

Thrash: God does not have one set of laws for heaven and another set of laws for His earthly kingdom.

Kelly: Do you really think that the Ten Commandments and scrolls of the law have been inside God's Most Holy Place in heaven from eternity past before man was created? Cannot a nation have one covenant with one nation and an entirely different covenant with another nation? God's Old Covenant law was only with national Israel. God treats New Covenant believers under New Covenant provisions --not under Old Covenant provisions.

Thrash: Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” What this means is God’s will is His Law. It’s the law in heaven and it’s the law on earth.

Kelly: This is illogical. God's will for national Israel was the Old Covenant. God's will for the Church is the New Covenant. God did not have to remind himself that it was sin to have any other gods before himself with that same law in heaven.

Thrash: Whether we understand it or whether or not we acknowledge it as being so; God’s will or God’s law is in force throughout His kingdom and governs all of God’s creation.

Kelly: God commanded national Israel NOT to share its covenant with any other nation. How can this be true if he wanted all nations to be under the same covenant law?

Thrash: (deleted long ramble) Matthew 5:20 saying; “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness (speaking to His followers) shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisee, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”(deleted long ramble)

Kelly: You quoted Matthew 5:17-18 and began again at 5:20 plus. Neat. You omitted 5:19 which forces you to obey all 600+ commandments of the law.

Thrash: Be sure to read Part Two in which I continue with this line of thought from Matthew 25 on unselfish giving and the consequences of our refusing to tithe and give gifts to those in need. Dthrash

Kelly: Your "line of thought" has no consistent definition of "law" and is absurd.

Russell Earl Kelly

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