Monday, September 21, 2009

Reply to D Thrasher -4

Reply to D Thrasher Tithing Misunderstood -4 edited

Thrash: You "trash" us with the same texts which we could use to trash you. According to you every church and denomination which teaches tithing is God-led and all of the ones who disagree are full of "dribble."

We have the "audacity" to challenge you to an in-depth study of God's Word and all you want to do is attack us instead of attacking what we discern is God's message. I have not read a word from you in defending your viewpoint and countering our argument. Where is your "holy boldness" and "Berean" attitude? We only want an honest discussion of the Word of God in context.

Yes, we are "eager" to challenge anyone who disagrees with us on the subject of tithing. Thank you. We take that as a compliment. We fall into the same category as Jesus, Peter, Paul, Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley in proclaiming our different point of view.

Thrash: "I don’t want their venomous dribble on my comments page."

Russ: Why did you blog to an open forum? Did you not blog with the full intent of influencing others towards your point of view? Why did you even allow comments? Do you only want mushy comments that blush over how wonderful you explain things? If you blog openly and ask for comments openly then you look rather silly calling opposing comments "dribble." That says more about you than others.

Thrash: The bible is God inspired. Man’s writings have no particular substance to them. John 16:13 states, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and will show you things to come.”

Russ: Yes, the Bible is inspired but it must be understood in its context. Yes, I also love John 16:13 and quote it often.

Trash: In the Book of Hebrews chapter seven, Melchisedec, king of Salem, which is king of Peace, and Priest of the Most High God (who was a forerunner of our present day Heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ) received a tenth of the spoils Abraham took from his enemies as a tithe long before the Jews under the Old Testament Law received the commandment to tithe. So tithing did not originate with the Jews and was being practiced long before the Jews came out of Egypt and entered the promise land.

Russ: I wholly agree with your conclusion above. However you want to take that conclusion and twist it into something which is not stateed in God's Word. What does your conclusion prove? Idolatry, child sacrifice and temple prostitution were also practiced in most nations surrounding Abraham. Merely being very old and very common does not make something moral or eternal. In fact, nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is copied by any church today. Is that true or not?

Thrash: God only made tithing a commandment for the Jews in the Old Testament because His people had demonstrated in the desert they were by nature, greedy, selfish, whiners, who had a hard time following His instructions. His priest would have starved to death on the Jews freewill offerings if God had not imposed this commandment upon the people to support them and His Tabernacle. People haven’t changed since Old Testament times because the devil hasn’t changed his Modus Operandi.

Russ: You are re-writing God's Word.

Thrash: There is an old saying, “Give until it hurts and then give some more.” The athlete have a similar saying, “No pain. No gain.” But, the devil tells his people to get all they can while the getting is good.

Russ: This is a good description of sacricial freewill giving which is better than tithing.

Thrash: Abraham loved the Lord God like the athlete loves fame. Abraham had a thankful, giving heart; that is why he is the biblical example of God’s willingness to bless a man beyond the norm because the man was appreciative of the many things God did for him.

Russ: Read all of Genesis 12. God blessed Abraham after he sinned --not after he tithed pagan spoils of war in chapter 14.

Thrash: In Genesis 14 the bible says Melchisedec came out to meet Abraham and brought bread and wine with him to refuel Abraham’s famished body and then blessed Abraham.

Russ: You are still re-writing the Bible.

Thrash: and Abraham gave to Melchisedec a tenth of the spoil he had taken from his enemies to show his appreciation for the blessings the Lord God had bestowed upon him. Abraham tithed to the Melchisedec because he wanted to, not because he had to. Hmmm.

Russ: You do not even need God's Word. You simply re-write it. Where does the Bible say that Abraham gave a tithe from spoils of war "to show his appreciation" or "because he wanted to"? If tithing pagan spoils of war was a common Canaanite tradition, then Abraham had no choice in his giving to the priest-king.

Thrash: Do you think this might be a picture of what man is suppose to do to show the Lord their appreciation for the blessings He bestows upon them? I do.

Russ: You conclusion is unblblical. Abraham (1) only tithed pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) nothing of his personal property, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom. His faith, not his tithing, is our example.

Thrash: Our tithes are useful to God only to the extent they can be used to meet the physical needs of the church and those people who are without.

Russ: You do not tithe. You may give more than 10% of freewill offerings, but you do not tithe. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel.

Thrash: The bible says in Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” This scripture tells us everything and everyone in God’s creation belongs to the Lord God.

Russ: This OT text was never used by Israel to accept tithes from outside His special holy land of Israel. Why do you use it differently?

Thrash: Since God owns everything and everyone; when we tithe to the church; we are actually showing our appreciation to the Lord for the blessings He bestows upon us through the tithe we give just as Abraham did in this story.

Russ: You do not tithe to the church. Tithing was never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary. And neither does the church require its "tithe-recipients" to forfeit property ownership as the tithing law required. Why not?

Thrash: Tithing for the Jews under the Old Testament law was commanded.

Russ: It was only commanded to food producers who lived inside Israel.

Thrash: The Old Testament Law was superceded by the New Testament which is a better covenant, but showing one’s appreciation to God for His blessings never left the heart of thankful man. That is why Abraham tithed, and that is why the churches in this country that are growing and expanding teach tithing.

Russ: There are many churches and Bible colleges which prosper without teaching tithing. The key is personal evangelism --not returning to the Old Covenant.

Thrash: In this picture in Genesis and Hebrews; this action between Melchisedec, Priest of the Most High God and Abraham is a spiritual interaction to show the love of God for Abraham through His blessing, and Abraham’s love for God by showing his appreciation for that blessing.

Russ: You are interpreting.

Thrash: The material items Abraham tithed in this story are mentioned only because that is the best Abraham had to give to Melchisedec in return for the Lord’s blessing.

Russ: No. He only gave pagan spoils of war. He gave nothing of his own personal property.

Thrash: If Abraham would of had something better to offer to the Lord God, he would have.

Russ: There is not a single text about Abraham tithing anything else at any time in his life. If this is so important, why not?

Thrash: Real tithing is done on a spiritual level. It is a spiritual exchange between the Lord and us; and He uses this exchange to test our honesty and sincerity in our relationship with Him. We don’t need a law to help us understand this. All we need is a thankful heart.

Russ: Real New Covenant freewill sacrificial giving is done on a spiritual level. Old Covenant tithing was a cold hard command of the law which "vanished" in Hebrews 8:13.

Now, take us on if you disagree with us. Don't stop now. Take each of our arguments and tell us in detail why you think we are wrong. That is the only way to settle the argument. May God bless our honest research.

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