Dialog with Pastor CV

CV: Your doctor puts up a good argument using logic ...but logic doesn't count for conviction. Logic is made up of calculative knowledge ...not conviction.

Russ Kelly: This is a very novel way of avoiding the facts. I am accused of having a good argument because I am logical! Never mind that every point I make is backed up by Bible texts. Perhaps the men on the Emmaeus Road should have said the same thing to Jesus after he had spent hours going from Genesis to Malachi proving who he was. “You have a good argument, sir, using the Bible to back up your points, but do you really believe what you are saying? Is thee any conviction behind your words?” Conviction comes when one asks God through the Holy Spirit to use the collective (not calculative) thoughts to understand the truth. That is called “revelation” and “inspiration.” And sometimes even the facts are given by “revelation.”

CV: Abraham never paid a tithe according to an ordinance …

Russ: Speculation without Bible validity. The Bible does not tell us “why” Abram (not Abraham) tithed. Since he was born and raised in Babylon, it is logical (oops) to conclude that he learned tithing in Babylon and was obeying the common traditional law of the land which required that tithes of spoils of war be paid to one’s local king-priest. There is much extra-biblical documentation to validate this and none to validate your argument.

CV: ...he paid a tithe according to a conviction.

RK: This is your opinion. The Bible does not tell us “why” Abram tithed. If you insist on teaching this, you are adding to God’s Word.

CV: Because it was a conviction ...it was done outside of law.

RK: Jesus quoted from all the Law and Prophets in order to CONVICT the Emmaeus Road disciples of the truth of who he was. Then he brought the truth home with divine revelation built on the collective facts.

CV: Tithing is biblical

RK: Pre-Law tithing is found in the Bible. Abram’s tithe of spoils of war was 10%; God “ordinance” for tithes from spoils of war in Numbers 31 was only 1% (one per cent: 1/2 of 1/50).

Law tithing is also biblical. Sixteen texts prove that it was severely limited to FOOD from inside God’s holy land of Israel which He had miraculously increased. Tithes could not come from what man increased, from Gentiles or from outside Israel. What gives you the authority to change the definition of holy tithes in God’s Word to “10% of all increase even from defiled pagan lands”?

CV: ...and the act demonstrated by Abraham was so important that Jesus showed up in the flesh to receive what Abraham offered through obedience to conviction.

RK: Only a very small group of theologians have ever reached this conclusion. Eight times Hebrews says that Christ was “after the order of Melchizedek.” He was not after his person. Melchizedek’s “order” was that of a “king-priest.” If God already had Jesus ruling and reigning as a king-priest in Jerusalem, then He would not have had to raise up Abram.

CV: Abraham is the greatest example of being a man of faith because he built a relationship with base on obedience to conviction. That works outside law. Is it possible for God to convict one to tithe without instruction given in law?

RK: Abram’s conviction was based on a personal divine interposing of God into his life. God chose Abram by His own Sovereignty. God told Abram what to do unconditionally. God made a covenant with Abram unconditionally. And TITHING was not included in that covenant as it appears in Genesis 12, 13, 15, 17, 22 or anywhere else. If (as you say) Abram tithed 10% of unholy pagan spoils of war from Sodom, then why are not tithes of spoils of war in Numbers 31 10% instead of 1%?

CV: We will reason going through one point at a time.

RK: I look forward to it.