Robert Briggs: If they [my views] are so similar to all others why is the heading of your yahoo thread "a very weird tithing view" even Tony knows my stance is different then most.
Russ: I did not place that title there. It came with the email.
Robert: I could care less if you are convinced or not. My goal is not to convince you. I leave you to your Master as you should be willing to do me. Time will tell. If you are right and I am wrong God will not condemn me for doing in faith what His word has instructed and what generations of people did before the law, after the law, during the time of Christ and AFTER the time of Christ.
Russ: Your statement is a mixture of truth and error and that makes it wrong. The “generations” who tithed “before the law” were pagans all around the world. Those who “tithed after the time of Christ” did not do so until many centuries had passed and they had perverted God’s Word. Church history is not on your side here.
Robert: However, if I am right and you are wrong your going to have a lot of explaining to do.
Russ: I have no fear. God’s Word is here.
Robert: One thing you folks never seem to address is why the church has turned into a money making corporation? Coffee shops, bingo, rummage sales, bake sales, sports nights, dances, etc. etc. all to pay the bills that the Tithes and Offerings could do easily if everyone did their part.
Russ: Your answer does not answer the WHY. Churches cannot pay their bills because they have stopped preaching the gospel and have stopped teaching personal evangelism.
Robert: Scripture does defend itself you fail to show me a place where scripture does away with tithe...
Russ: I gave you 14 Bible reasons which lead to the conclusion that tithing has been done away. Do you know how to read? Comment on each of them, especially the definition of the tithe.
Robert: For the circumsizion which existed before the law we are told “quotes Romans 2:25 and 1 Cor 7:19.”
Russ: When are you going to tell me what you mean by “keeping the commandments of God”? Are you referring to the whole law of 600 commandments or your own version where you decide which ones to keep and which ones to reject? I understand the phrase after Calvary to refer to the New Covenant’s ROYAL LAW commands of love, the golden rule and not being a respecter of persons. You have no consistent hermeneutic for how you use the words “law” and “commandments.” Don’t throw a verse at me that you cannot explain.
Robert: Hebrews 10:8.
Russ: Why are you quoting this text? Is this 52 card pickup?
Robert: But for the Tithe which existed before the law we have only Jesus saying.. Matt 23:23.
Russ: You totally ignore my point by point explanation of Mt 23:23. You make no effort whatsoever to show me where my understanding is wrong. Then you make the remark that Jesus was discussing a pre-law definition of the tithe when He clearly is not.
Robert: The scripture in MULTIPLE subjects, shows that when something from the Old Covenant is done away with it is done away with SPECIFICALLY with another scripture.
Russ: The scripture in multiple places says that the entire Old Covenant Law which was only given to Israel ended. Heb 8:13; 7:18; Gal 3:19, 24-26; Rom 10:4. I reject your hermeneutic as being exactly OPPOSITE mine and the truth. The OT Law was never commanded to me or to the Church.
Robert: Robert: Tithe(s) were practices before Moses ever wrote them down.
Russ: Tithes, yes. Holy biblical tithes, no.
Robert: Wow... so to you Abram's pre covenant tithe was unholy and un biblical?
Russ: Is English a second or third language for you? I did not say “unholy and un-biblical.” I did say “not holy biblical.” Show me where Abram’s tithe meets the high standards of a holy tithe under the Law. You cannot because you are wrong.
Robert: Why then was it recorded? Why was he selected?
Russ: If you think that “being recorded” makes something moral, then you would never understand Job and Ecclesiastes.
Robert: And why was he [Abraham] again commended in the NT scriptures for THIS act and not some other more worthy example of faith and obedience to God?
Russ: The purpose of Hebrews was not to commend Abram for tithing. Tithes were used as a writing vehicle to prove that Melchizedek was greater than Aaron. Why do you ignore Abram’s act of giving the 90% to the king of Sodom?
Russ: Tithes were well known in pagan lands.
Robert: You surely didn't read my first article then Russ ole boy because I made this point long before i ever began dialogue with you. The fact was tithe was known.
Russ: That still does not make it an eternal moral principle.
Robert: In my belief it was known, albeit perverted, by pagans simply because it was taught to them via verbal transfer from the time of Adam just like Animal sacrifice.
Russ: That is your belief, or opinion, with no biblical confirmation.
Robert: GOD solidified and removed the errors and eronious understanding by compiling a WRITTEN WORD which could not be perverted.
Russ: And the tithe of the Old Covenant Law was only FOOD from inside God’s holy land. Try and disprove that.
Robert: You fail to understand that the belief in the existence of a Divinity came from the same source through verbal means before it was ever recorded.
Russ: That is not what God’s Word teaches in Rom 1:18-20 and 2:14-16.
Robert: Moses is responsible for what we know about the creation account and he did not live during that time. The stories were passed down. Many times being corrupted as in the account of the Babylonians concerning Gilgamesh but still they show a congruent understanding and similarity of some points of faith which HAD TO come from a singular source.
Russ: The Law still limited holy tithes to FOOD from inside Israel. Deal with that.
Russ: The Bible does not tell WHY Abram tithed.
Robert: It most certainly DOES tell us why Arbam tithed.
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
To recieve God's blessing.
Russ: The text merely says THAT Abram tithed spoils of war and was blessed. It does not tell us WHY. Any local king-priest within a thousand miles would have done the same thing after receiving spoils of war from a victor passing through his domain.
Robert: If more church members would regularly tithe, and give offerings of a reasonable amount there would never be a need on the part of the minister to talk about it on a regular basis.
Russ: There are successful churches all over the world which do not teach tithing. Good preachers who know how to preach inspiring soul-saving sermons do not need to add the law to grace. Gal 1:8-9; 3:1-5.
Russ: Now tell us why Abram gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Robert: Scripture tell us why Abrham gave back the 90% to this pagan king... so that that man would not be able to say that Abram's wealth came from him instead of GOD. Gen 14:23.
Russ: Why would Abram care what a sodomite king thought? To the victor go the spoils. Abram had the right to keep everything.
According to you we are still to follow his example and that means to keep nothing and give the 90% to our local Satanic cult.
Robert: In the new covenant we are introduced to another concept. that of Stewardship. In reality then we are to understand that ALL we posess is God's and it is simply intrusted to us.
Russ: Please tell me what this has to do with tithing. The post-Calvary New Covenant Holy Spirit-blessed giving principle of SACRIFICIAL giving teaches this.
Robert: By the payment of the tithe we are acknowledging this fact.
Russ: No text. Worthless.
Robert: The NT teaches repeatedly through many different methods and means that we are to yeild all not part.
Russ: One can be willing to yield all without teaching tithing.
Robert: However, if a person will not willingly part with a 10th there is no way in the world they would EVER give it all if God asked it of them.
Russ: Not true. The story of the widow’s mite proves that. She was not tithing. She was giving a sacrificial freewill offering.
Robert: Laws like Covet not, Kill Not, Worship Not, Steal Not, were MORAL/Ethical
Russ: Yes, but only because they are also written in the heart, nature and conscience by God to every man.
Robert: Laws like Sabbath day, Animal Sacrifice, Washing of hands, wearing of special apparel,
Circumcision of the flesh, Abstaining from meat WERE Cerimonial in nature and had nothing to do with ethics or morality....
Russ: They were still moral and punishable to a Hebrew only and violators could not worship. Sabbath breakers were killed. You want to subdivide the Old Covenant Law, discard what you do not like and keep tithing. Neat trick. The entire Old Covenant Law ended at Calvary for Israel per Hebrews 8:13 and Galatians 3:19. Gentiles never were “under the law.”
Robert: So we can now murder? Steal? Have idols? Worship other Gods? Men can dress in the clothing of women and women can dress in the clothes of a man?
Russ: This stupid argument shows a complete misunderstanding of the concept of law. How many times do I have to tell you that the moral law is written in the heart by nature and conscience per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16. And tithing is not. That is why the Gentiles are guilty before God in Romans 3:10-20.
Robert: The laws of GOD were not done away... the LAWS of Moses which were the writings of Moses and the Elders on the application of the 10 laws of God WERE!
Russ: I can provide you scores of texts which prove that that “Law of God” and the “Law of Moses” are the same thing before Calvary.
Russ: That part of the Old Covenant Law for Israel which applies to all people and the church today is found written in nature and conscience per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16. It has been written in the hearts as the New Covenant based on LOVE per Romans 8:2.
Robert: So then what happened to the Corinthian church? How did they get perverted?
Russ: They sinned.
Robert: Or the Galatians?
Russ: They were perverted by the legalists from Acts 15 who wanted to force everybody to keep ALL the Law – especially tithing, circumcision, Sabbath and unclean foods – Pharisee favorites.
Robert: Sure we know what is right but we do not always do what is right. The scriptures All of them, which by the way, are given by God and PROFITABLE, teach us about requirement, obedience, disobedience, faithfulness, faithlessness, judgment and reward.... and without them we are doomed.
Russ: No all scripture is addressed to all people. That is called “rightly dividing the word of God.” The Old Covenant Law was never commanded to me, a Gentile. I was never under the law.
Russ: Now you are writing your own Bible. Please provide some texts for this revelation. The civil judgments were enforced by the judges who handled presumptuous sins.
Robert: If you can't read the 10 commandments and see which ones pertain to my points I'm not going to waste my time writing them because you still won't see what I am saying.
Russ: Save yourself the trouble. My Bible says that the Law was only commanded to Israel whom God called out of Egypt per Exodus 19:5-6 and 20:1-2.
Robert: Don't tell me, let me guess.... you don't believe in "organized" religion. You feel the need for churches is non existent and you worship God according to the dictates of your own heart. Right?
Russ: Wrong again.
Robert: Mt 23:23. Jesus taught the Pharisees' that his disciples had broken no law when they washed their hands even though the law taught it.
Russ: Wrong. If Jesus broke the law then He was a sinner and we are still dead in our sins. The washing of hands which Jesus opposed was ritual added by the Pharisees which some say did not even require water (but dirt).
Robert: And he taught that the healing on the Sabbath day was not work, just as the saving of a trapped animal on the sabbath was not either. HE my friend got into the Spirit of the Law which you seem oblivious to.
Russ: You are oblivious to the fact that Jesus lived under the full jurisdiction of the law and it controlled everything a Jew must do from waking to sleeping. Again it was the whole Law which Jesus observed – including judgments and statutes.
Russ: And, “yes,” you must “throw out” the whole “baby” of the whole law and start over again with the New Covenant which re-instates the moral parts of the law in terms of grace and faith.
Robert: YOUR FOOLISH throw away the Bible then because we have no requirments any more.
Russ: Again, you either cannot understand plain English or do not read a thing I have written. May I introduce you to Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” When the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, the colonies instantly were NOT under English law (good or bad); it all ended instantly. Then (notice carefully) the good parts of that same law were reworded in terms of the US Constitution. Catch on?
Russ: I have just provided scores of scriptural authorization that tithes ended. You have proven nothing.
Robert: Russ you prove something only to yourself and like minded people who feel they have no responsibility to support a church, and that feel it is improper to have a full time minister.
Russ: You now attack me personally. That is the way it usually happens when you are losing the argument. In fact I vigorously support my church and provide free assistance to other church organizations. I am all for full-time ministry. I just do not think it should be supported from the lie of tithing.
Robert: So, how many converts does your unorganized approach bring to the master each year?
Russ: Does not apply to me. I attend an organized church.
Robert: How much does this minor topic of tithe do to get people to the weightier matters of importance?
Russ: I hear from preachers very often who have switched and agree with me. And again you are twisting God’s Word; the text says “weightier matters of the law.” Jesus was not addressing the Church or Gentiles.
Robert: NONE... you're always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth..
Russ: If you are so smart, then continue this dialog and actually discuss some texts someday.
Robert: When you people open your blogs up to comments I might consider a public dialogue.. but each and every one of you're blogs (in the cases of those who came to my sight and commented) are closed to comment.. why is that?
Russ: I strongly discourage such and will speak up against it on the Tithing-Study Group. My blog is open and the Tithing-Study Group is open unless you start name calling.
Robert: Get off your hobby horse and be as critical with your own bread as you are with mine.
Russ: It is not my hobby-horse. It is my calling from God to complete the Reformation. The Tithing-Study Group does not exist to air out “feel good” personal reasons.
Robert: So why all the cyber back slapping (good point Tony), (good argument....) (you showed him)... bla bla bal.
Russ: I do not participate in that nor do I approve of it. Perhaps Robert Fox can speak to that point with the Group.
Robert: So tell me why do you throw away scripture which requires that you avoid foolish and unlearend questions? Why do you seek them out? Why argue when the scripture says not to? Hypocrite.
Russ: Since when is adding the law back into grace a foolish and unlearned question? I consider it a matter of the church surviving and overcoming legalism. The Scripture tells me to “prove all things” and “teach sound doctrine.” I suppose you disagree with Jesus for arguing with the religious leaders of his day also.
Robert: So agian.. why keep your blogs from having comment? At least I have the guts to open comment and I don't need a back door support group to urge me on...
Russ: See Robert Fox about this.
Russ: Cyber bullies? Have you ever noticed that we are outnumbered by about 10,000 to 1 when churches blog FOR tithing? Most churches, most Christian magazines and most Christian TV and radio stations “bully” people with endless messages promoting tithing. Many of their blogs allow no discussion at all – they simply teach tithing and curse those who disagree. Who are you kidding here?
Robert: So why come seeking a fight? Why try to feed off of someone else’s labors do your own soul winning. Teach people from the ground up and stop being a soul cyphon trying to take the easy way out.
Russ: Does your Bible contain the book of Acts? Why don’t you throw this accusation at Paul? We are trying to clean up the church so it can be revived and win souls again. That is our mission – to clean the annulled law out of the church per Heb 7:18.
Russ: I am glad that Martin Luther and John Calvin did not take your advice. We would all still be bowing to the Pope. Since you emailed me personally along with the Group, consider this an invitation to dialog with me on my personal blog and I will post both sides without cutting anything. It is: http://russkellyphd.blogspot.com/. By the way, Tithing-Study Group can be read by anybody. If your arguments are better than ours, you can make all of us look stupid. It is an open forum.
Robert: Martin Luther and John Calvin taught TITHE...
Russ: I have quotes from them on my web site to the contrary.
Robert: No, the pastor of the local assembly is charged with teaching sound doctrine as says the Pastoral Epistles of Paul. Not the laity.
Russ: If they taught sound doctrine, we would ask them to join us as many pastors have done. According to 1st Timothy 5:19-20 the laity can and should insure that church leaders are not teaching false doctrine.
Non Tithe Teachers: D. L. Moody, L. S. Chafer, Merrill Unger, Charles Ryrie, J. V. McGee and John MacArthur. Believe it or not you can have a successful growing church without teaching tithing. You simply need to preach good lively Bible sermons and personal evangelism.
Robert: Wow.. .what is your point? I like all the names, most of them I know of indepth and they all taught titheing. Why don't you listen to one of my sermons and then tell me if they are not "Good and Lively" or not.
Russ: None of those men teach tithing and you should be ashamed of yourself for smearing their good non-tithing names. If your sermons are “good and lively” then God will bless your church without requiring the addition of law to grace principles. Gal 1:8-9; 3:1.
Russell Earl Kelly