Atheism-June 2, 2010

“The goal of DNA is procreation, survival of the species in general and of the genes (NOT the individual organism, but the genes!). If my genes are passed on, I've done my job.”
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Kelly: First, according to your own godless theology, DNA cannot have a “goal” because it is random and mindless. It does not give a poop whether the species survives or not. Second, if you DIE childless saving friends by falling on a grenade or rescuing them, your DNA ends!
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“THAT is the best case self-preservation of the DNA and as a parent I am driven like a crazy person to help my kids reach reproductive adulthood at all costs.”
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Kelly: “Reproductive adulthood” or merely “adulthood.” If your child has inherited horrible genes which only lead to great suffering, you do not want that child to reproduce more suffering.
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“If I can't pass on my genes, but my sister or my brother or my uncle does, then at least part of my genes carry on as well. If no one in my family survives to pass on their genes, but a group of humans does, then the species carries on, and the genes are happy.”
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Kelly: Happy genes. Sounds like a Mother Goose fairy tale to me. You are fantasizing.
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“Altruism is an argument in favor of evolution, not against it.
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Kelly: It is your replacement for God.
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“A 3 year old does not pitch a temper tantrum because it feels good. They do it as a means of testing boundaries, as in how much can I get Dad to break the rules if I cry and yell? And yes, sometimes that does backfire, and sometimes it succeeds in stretching the boundaries.”
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Kelly: Let that 3 year old achieve his/her goal and you will be raising a very selfish domineering brat who does not respect you or others. Why even bother if the child’s preprogrammed DNA determines how it is going to act?
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“So it's like gambling. And a win, when you gamble, does indeed light up the same part of the brain as an altruistic act does. The part scientists call the reward, or pleasure center.”
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Kelly: Theologians call it self-gratification and often SIN. That is why many take drugs, overeat and commit crimes.
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“So, there it is, the mechanics of altruism. The HOW (Sorry! I couldn't help myself!) In that sense, your behavior comes from the genes you got from your parents, AND your environment as well.”
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Kelly: My argument from your logic is, since my behavior comes from my genes, then I am not responsible for my actions! And I can justify anything I do and not call it sin. What you call antisocial “genes” we call “the sin nature.”
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“Genes can be turned on and off. For instance, identical twins raised in separate homes have identical genes. But the way one was raised may trigger a gene to be switched on, while the way the other was raised may cause a gene to stay off. This determines what proteins (amino acids) are produced and released into the blood stream. And this can alter behavior.”
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Kelly: Now you are contradicting part of your previous statement – “your behavior comes from the genes you got from your parents, AND your environment as well.” So, you can actually CHANGE WHO YOU ARE and are not captive to your genes. You can actually THINK yourself into a better or worse person. Sounds like freedom of the will to me –today you will choose whom you will serve—the inner nature or the image of God.
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“This is a somewhat plastic system, since changes in environment can change the expression of certain genes (on or off). In some cases I believe a strong will can achieve the same! Biofeedback works with other systems of the body, such as raising temperature or increasing circulation.”
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Kelly: You are actually describing one set of preprogrammed DNA sequences overriding another set of preprogrammed DNA sequences –none of which actually cause the genes to MUTATE to be passed on. You sound more and more like a theist.
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“Another fact to consider is that much adult criminal behavior is rooted in mental illness.”
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Kelly: Defective dominant MUTANT genes. Who are you to say that they should be the NORM and YOU are the abnormal? After all, both they and you came up through the same ranks of evolution. Aren’t you playing God to say that their behavior is wrong?
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“Dear Russell, I am not foolish enough at age 58 to think I can convert you to atheism. I would not want to. Your faith is important to you, and I'm happy for you that you have it! (However, if you tell me I can't have a desperately needed abortion, or can't marry the woman I deeply love as a soul mate and sexual partner because I am a woman myself, then we have a problem in our definition of morals.”
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Kelly: I am merely trying to use your own logic against your arguments. In my opinion you have no consistent working definition of “morals.” For instance, you picked out abortion and gay marriage. I then ask you “Why did you leave out murder, rape, sex with animals and marriage to animals?” Do you see my argument? You have “moral” boundaries but you do not want to attribute the existence of morality to anything but blind mutant chance.
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“Finally, you speak to the hunger for knowledge, or at least that's what I call it. You call it seeking for a meaning in life beyond ourselves. I see the need to grow and stretch and explore in all creatures.”
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Kelly: Since our discussions began I have purchased a college textbook which uses evolution as its foundation, Biology, Raven Johnson, McGraw Hill. I am not in this discussion to play. I am here to learn and to help my friend, Berne (and you).
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“Myself, I wanted to know what was going to happen when I die. I believe I have figured it out, and I am thrilled with the idea that I will go back someday to where I came from. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Elementary particles swirling in a nebula. Stardust. My thinking self will die when I do, and I'm perfectly happy to let it go.”
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Kelly: I am happy knowing that my books are impacting millions for good change. I hope to see my children achieve something good before I die. I expect to spend eternity with God asking questions and learning. I sleep well and do not fear death.