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Monday, June 14, 2010

Preterism-5

Chris: ALL DISPENSATIONALITS AGREE THAT THE LAW OF MOSES HAS BEEN PERMANENTLY REMOVED.

Russ: What is your position?

Chris: HOWEVER ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE MOSAIC COVENANT WITH ITS CULTUS WAS TO STAND FOREVER? … FROM THESE EXAMPLES IT IS EVIDENT THAT FOREVER DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN WITHOUT END.

Russ: Yes, there are times in which “forever” refers to “as long as you shall live” (EX 21:6) and “perpetual” means “as long as the conditional Old Covenant lasts.”

Chris: GEN17:7 GOD MADE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM TO GIVE THEM THE LAND.THE CONDITIONAL PROMISE THAT DEMANDED OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW OF MOSES.

Russ: You conveniently skipped Genesis 12 and 15. The covenant had both an UNCONDITIONAL and a CONDITIONAL element. The only conditions of Genesis 12:1-4 was for Abram to “Get thee out” of Haran and go to Canaan. “And he departed” in Gen 12:4 makes God’s promises UNCONDDTIONAL that the land would be given to Abraham’s seed. Also, in Genesis 15, God Himself placed Abraham in a sleep and He alone walked among the cut covenant. That makes the covenant UNCONDITINAL. Only the timing was CONDITIONAL as we see in Genesis 17. All the prophets taught the same thing: God was going to UNCONDITIONALLY give Israel the land but the timing was CONDITIONAL until God was ready.

Chris: GENESIS 17:13 CIRCUMCISION WAS TO BE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT BETWEEN GOD AND ISRAEL YET PAUL SAID THAT CIRCUMCISION MEANS NOTHING AND TO BE CIRCUMCISED FOR RELIGIOUS REASON IS TO LOSE BENEFIT OF CHRIST'S WORK GAL 5:1-6.

Russ: What consistent hermeneutic do you use to bring something from the past into the New Covenant? I really want to know. You are asking all the questions and REFUSE to comment on my questions. Unfair!
The consistent hermeneutic used by Dispensationalists is this: That which is eternal and moral has been REPEATED to the Church after Calvary in terms of the New Covenant through grace and faith. Circumcision has specifically been repeated in that new light to the Church in the New Covenant after Calvary.

Chris: EXODUS 31:16 THE SABBATHS WAS A PERPETUAL COVENANT YET PAUL (GOOD JEW THAT HE WAS) SAID THAT GENTILE CHRISTIAN WERE NOT TO BE JUDGED ON WHETHER THEY OBSERVED THE SABBATHS OF ISRAEL IN FACT WHEN WRITING TO GALATIANS HE SAID I AM AFRAID OF YOU FOR YOY OBSERVE DAYS AND WEEKS AND MONTHS AND YEARS.

Russ: Exodus 31:13-17 is in the context of God’s CONDITIONAL Old Covenant made only with national Israel. Again, what is your CONSISTENT hermeneutic to deal with this problem? I really want to know. The application of my consistent hermeneutic allows me to discard it for two reasons (1) as part of the discarded CONDITIONAL Old Covenant and (2) because the Sabbath is dealt with by Paul after Calvary in terms of the New Covenant.

Chris: THE ATTEMPT TO IMPOSE THOSE ETERNAL STATUES ON CHRISTIANS IS CONDEMNED.

Russ: Conservative Baptist Dispensationalists have no problem understanding these texts. You need to take them up with churches which have a yearly calendar of holy days and think that Sunday legalistically replaces the Sabbath.

Chris: EXDOUS 29:28 THE LORD PROMISED WOULD BELONG TO THE AARONIC FAMILY FOR PERPETUAL STATUTE YET THE NEW TESTSMENT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT THE AARONIC PRIESTHOOD HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED BY CHRISTS SUPERIOR PRIESHOOD'

Russ: Again my CONSISTENT hermeneutic allows me to discard this for the same two reasons as the Sabbath: (1) as part of the CONDITIONAL Old Covenant and (2) because it has been dealt with in the New Covenant for the Church after Calvary.

Chris: THE DEMAND THAT FOREVER MEANS WITHOUT END CAN IN FACT LEAD TO A SERIOUS PROBLEMS FOR THE MILLENNIAL VIEW. NOT ONLY WERE THE MANDATES OF THE MOSAIC COVENANT SAID TO BE ETERNAL …

Russ: Do you have a CONSISTENT hermeneutic to use on the same texts you want me to explain? Let us be fair now. It is your turn. Do you discard EVERYTHING called “forever” or simply pick-n-choose?
For the third time, my CONSISTENT hermeneutic allows to me discard a “forever” or “perpetual” statement which is found WITHIN THE CONDITIONAL Old Covenant. The “forever” statement promised to Abram in Genesis 12 and 15 were (1) given BEFORE the Old Covenant and (2) were not annulled in the New Covenant.

Chris: WHAT MANY DO NOT REALIZE IS THAT JEHOVAH PLACED AN ETERNAL CURSE ON ISRAEL YET WE DO NOT HEAR THE MILLENNIAITS TALKING ABOUT THIS. JER 23:39-40

Russ: If all we had from Jeremiah’s pen were 23:39-40 I might agree with you. God did indeed cast out those who rejected Jeremiah’s message and place an everlasting curse and humiliation ON THEM. Now I use your own words to ask you “Do you realize that Jehovah gave David and everlasting covenant which would extend even BEYOND his disobedient children?” Millennialists do not need to talk about Jeremiah 23:30-40 because Jeremiah added much more in chapters 29 through 33!!! YOU, my friend, do not want to own up to Jer 31:35-36
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.” These are NOT CONDITIONAL words which are part of the Old Covenant and these are definitely repeated to the Church after Calvary in terms of the New Covenant.

Chris: LETS TAKE A BRIEF WALK THROUGH THE OLD TESTAMENT TO EXAMINE SOME OF THE ETERNAL THINGS THAT WERE TO PASS AWAY.

Russ: Now LETS TAKE A BRIEF WALK THROUGH THE OLD TESTAMENT TO EXAMINE SOME OF THE ETERNAL THINGS THAT WERE NOT TO PASS AWAY.

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

2 Sam 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Amos 9:14-15 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Mic 7:18-20 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. 20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

Ezek 36:21-22 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I have lots more of these. Now it is your turn to explain my texts.

In Christ’s love
Russ

1 comment:

淑慧 said...

恨一個人,比原諒一個人,更傷力氣。..................................................................