Tuesday, August 19, 2008
Challenge to Seventh-day Adventists
I challenge Seventh-day Adventist to dialog on the doctrine of the investigative judgment. My web stie is www.exposingseventhdayadventism.com
Tithes Were Never Money
"Oooh, but food was used for money in those days because they did not have money" (and lived like cave men?)
Two more texts to knock down that argument:
Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
Two more texts to knock down that argument:
Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Gen 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
Friday, August 15, 2008
Where Have All the Tithe Blessings Gone?
Where Have All the Tithe Blessings Gone?
Why are tithers suffering from this economic downturn? I thought they were immune from hard times. I thought God promised them unconditionally that He would bless them if they simply tithe.
Never mind the other 612 commandments required for blessings. Never mind the lies and marital infidelity. I even know tithers who are shacking up. But they expect God to bless them for tithing.
Perhaps we are not under the Old Covenant any more.
Why are tithers suffering from this economic downturn? I thought they were immune from hard times. I thought God promised them unconditionally that He would bless them if they simply tithe.
Never mind the other 612 commandments required for blessings. Never mind the lies and marital infidelity. I even know tithers who are shacking up. But they expect God to bless them for tithing.
Perhaps we are not under the Old Covenant any more.
LIberal Churches Still Teach Titthing
Liberal churches amaze me. Many (if not most of them) (churches with a "United" in front of their name) affiliate with the Jesus Seminar: they deny the inspiration of the Bible, deny miracles, deny the deity of Christ, deny the historical existence of Moses, Abraham and David and assign the tithe-teaching books to after BC 400. Many even teach that Genesis 14 was a much later addition.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
LIberal Churches Still Teach Titthing
Liberal churches amaze me. Many (if not most of them) (churches with a "United" in front of their name) affiliate with the Jesus Seminar: they deny the inspiration of the Bible, deny miracles, deny the deity of Christ, deny the historical existence of Moses, Abraham and David and assign the tithe-teaching books to after BC 400. Many even teach that Genesis 14 was a much later addition.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
LIberal Churches Still Teach Titthing
Liberal churches amaze me. Many (if not most of them) (churches with a "United" in front of their name) affiliate with the Jesus Seminar: they deny the inspiration of the Bible, deny miracles, deny the deity of Christ, deny the historical existence of Moses, Abraham and David and assign the tithe-teaching books to after BC 400. Many even teach that Genesis 14 was a much later addition.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
However --hold your breath-- they still teach tithing? I guess money is far more important than truth.
Monday, August 04, 2008
TITHING: IT IS A GOOD PLACE TO START
DIALOG: BAPTIST PASTOR AND RUSS KELLY
“The issue of tithing 10% is simple.”
Comment: It is so complex that Southern Baptists and other leaders will not even discuss with their lesser educated members, much less than with me.
“I believe that it is a starting point for the New Testament Christian.”
Comment: “I believe” is opinion and does not make something sound doctrine.
“I know that the command to tithe is an Old Covenant Law but when we compare Law vs. Grace, Grace always does more compared to the Law and never less than the law.”
Comment: This is a sneaky comment which is based on false assumptions: (1) that everybody in the OT was required to tithe and (2) that everybody began their giving level at 10%.
First, only farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel were required to tithe and to begin their giving level at 10% of food. Tithes were not acceptable from Gentiles or pagan lands and your preacher cannot honestly deny those facts.
Second, although money was common even in Genesis and was required for worship it was never included in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
Third, as inheritance laws pushed many off the lands early, most became day-laborers or worked trades in the cities.
Carpenters (Jesus), fisherman (Peter) and tentmakers (Paul) had nothing tithe-able and could not tithe.
Therefore it is dishonest to make people think that everybody in the OT began their giving leval and ten per cent and it means that Christians should also.
“Jesus' sacrificial death ushered in the the New Covenant of Grace and His death was above and beyond any Old Covenant Law.”
Comment: Jesus sacrificial death ended the Old Covenant, changes its priesthood and temple to the individual believer and ended the wall of ceremonial worship statutes such as tithing which separated Jews from Gentile. The two were reconciled by destroying the statutes of separation.
“Jesus told us not to store up treasures for ourselves on Earth where rust and moths destroy but to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven where rust and moths do not destroy. (my paraphrase).”
Comment: That is sort or sanctimonious. The preacher has the most to gain from a tithing church.
“For me, I want God to bless me with more not so that my standard of living can keep going up, but so I can give more to support His work through the local church and around the world.”
Comment: Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to tithe in Mt 23:23 because he was discussing “matters of the law” and the law was still in full effect. He could not have told his Gentile disciples to do so.
There are 25 tithing principles in the OT and the church follows NONE of them. Why? The OT tithe-recipient was not allowed to own or inherit property? Who changed that law? The OT worshipper was to be killed for touching a Levite or priest who was paid with tithes in Num 3:10? Who changed that law? What justification does he have to discard everything called holy and most holy in Leviticus except tithing? That is not right.
“I would recommend reading the "Treasure Principle" by Randy Alcorn”
Comment: Read my rebuttal of
Alcorn’s logic at http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id57.html. That is where you pastor got his argument. Alcorn refused to debate me in Christianity Today.
“My concern in this issue is as you can see that he says grace always does more the law. He then explain this Sunday from the pulpit this statement by giving an example of the Old Testament sacrifices animals and he is staying the New Testament did more and sacrifice a human.
Now this statement does not sit well with my spirit. Can you tell me what your take on this statement ?
Comment: See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id119.html
In Him,
He will show his true heart by refusing to have you monitor a discussion with me. I will guarantee that from past experience.
See also http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id105.html
Russ Kelly
“The issue of tithing 10% is simple.”
Comment: It is so complex that Southern Baptists and other leaders will not even discuss with their lesser educated members, much less than with me.
“I believe that it is a starting point for the New Testament Christian.”
Comment: “I believe” is opinion and does not make something sound doctrine.
“I know that the command to tithe is an Old Covenant Law but when we compare Law vs. Grace, Grace always does more compared to the Law and never less than the law.”
Comment: This is a sneaky comment which is based on false assumptions: (1) that everybody in the OT was required to tithe and (2) that everybody began their giving level at 10%.
First, only farmers and herdsmen living inside Israel were required to tithe and to begin their giving level at 10% of food. Tithes were not acceptable from Gentiles or pagan lands and your preacher cannot honestly deny those facts.
Second, although money was common even in Genesis and was required for worship it was never included in any of the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
Third, as inheritance laws pushed many off the lands early, most became day-laborers or worked trades in the cities.
Carpenters (Jesus), fisherman (Peter) and tentmakers (Paul) had nothing tithe-able and could not tithe.
Therefore it is dishonest to make people think that everybody in the OT began their giving leval and ten per cent and it means that Christians should also.
“Jesus' sacrificial death ushered in the the New Covenant of Grace and His death was above and beyond any Old Covenant Law.”
Comment: Jesus sacrificial death ended the Old Covenant, changes its priesthood and temple to the individual believer and ended the wall of ceremonial worship statutes such as tithing which separated Jews from Gentile. The two were reconciled by destroying the statutes of separation.
“Jesus told us not to store up treasures for ourselves on Earth where rust and moths destroy but to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven where rust and moths do not destroy. (my paraphrase).”
Comment: That is sort or sanctimonious. The preacher has the most to gain from a tithing church.
“For me, I want God to bless me with more not so that my standard of living can keep going up, but so I can give more to support His work through the local church and around the world.”
Comment: Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to tithe in Mt 23:23 because he was discussing “matters of the law” and the law was still in full effect. He could not have told his Gentile disciples to do so.
There are 25 tithing principles in the OT and the church follows NONE of them. Why? The OT tithe-recipient was not allowed to own or inherit property? Who changed that law? The OT worshipper was to be killed for touching a Levite or priest who was paid with tithes in Num 3:10? Who changed that law? What justification does he have to discard everything called holy and most holy in Leviticus except tithing? That is not right.
“I would recommend reading the "Treasure Principle" by Randy Alcorn”
Comment: Read my rebuttal of
Alcorn’s logic at http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id57.html. That is where you pastor got his argument. Alcorn refused to debate me in Christianity Today.
“My concern in this issue is as you can see that he says grace always does more the law. He then explain this Sunday from the pulpit this statement by giving an example of the Old Testament sacrifices animals and he is staying the New Testament did more and sacrifice a human.
Now this statement does not sit well with my spirit. Can you tell me what your take on this statement ?
Comment: See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id119.html
In Him,
He will show his true heart by refusing to have you monitor a discussion with me. I will guarantee that from past experience.
See also http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id105.html
Russ Kelly
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