Reply to Covenant Theology on Tithing
http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/
Element Of Reformed Worship #5
Tuesday, September 29, 2009 by Puritan Lad ·
Tithes and Offerings EDITED
Lad: Quotes Malachi 3:10. A proper view of the tithe consists of acknowledging the Lordship of God over all things. God owns everything (Psalm 50:10-11), and thus our giving is not for His benefit, but for ours (Psalm 50:12-15).
Kelly: While it was also true in the Old Covenant that God owns everything, that was never used as a reason to accept tithes from outside his holy land of Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe as only food from inside Israel. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor not anybody who lived outside Israel.
Lad: The tithe is to be brought (not sent) into the local church, "that there may be food in my house" (Malachi 3:10). God has designed his church to function financially off of the tithe, in both the Old and New Testaments.
Kelly: There is no post-Calvary New Covenant text which teaches this. God's house in within every believer and his priesthood is now every believer.
Lad: A common argument from those who rejecting tithing is that the practice was part of the ceremonial law, and thus should not be observed today. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Kelly: I thought Covenant Theology agreed that the ceremonial worship statutes-ordinances and civil judicial judgments of the Law do not apply to the New Covenant dispensation. Tithing was clearly a part of the worship statutes which was never commanded to the Church.
Lad: David Chilton responds,
"It is commonly held that we are no longer under any obligation to tithe in this "dispensation." There is not a shred of evidence to support such a position: the law of the tithe has never been revoked.
Kelly: "Not a shred of evidence!!!" There is a book full of evidence.
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
Lad: And, it should be noted, while the modern abandonment of tithing has a superficial appearance of freedom, it has actually been replaced with a tyrannical legalism. Listen to any radio or television preacher-or perhaps your own pastor-appealing for funds.
Kelly: The pot is calling the kettle black. The one who clings to the law is calling the one who is dead to the law a legalist. The vast majority of preachers still teach tithing.
Lad: If he rejects the tithe, what is the basis for his plea? LOVE. He does not, of course, define love as the Bible defines it- keeping God's commandments (Romans 13:10; 1 John 5:3) - but rather according to the perceived "needs" of his own ministry.
Kelly: The basis of the grace-giving preachers' plea for money is GRACE --not law. You put yourself into the corner or deciding which of the 600+ "commandments" of the law are still valid for the church. What gives you the authority to keep tithing and reject the other 600 commandments of that same law? Do your preachers own property
Lad: God's simple requirement is that we give ten percent of our income; once we have paid His tax, we know that no more is demanded.
Kelly: The tithe was never equal to income. And none of the tithe requirements from Numbers 18 are obeyed by your church or any other church today: (1) tithes only to servants of ministers, (2) one per cent to ministers, (3) tithe only food, (4) only ministers can enter the sanctuary, and (5) ministers KILL anybody who dares to enter the sanctuary and worship God directly.
Lad: Those who honor the law of tithing are free from the manipulation techniques of money hungry charlatans posing as gospel ministers.
Kelly: The true honest biblical law of tithing was always only food from inside God's holy land of Israel. Please try to disprove that.
Lad: The tithe is NOT part of the ceremonial law (as some "red-letter Christians" would suggest) …
Kelly: I suppose Leviticus 27,Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 12, 14, and 26 are not part of the law. According to Hebrews 7:5 tithing was the essential part of the law to pay its workers who were not allowed to own property (as modern "tithe" recipients do).
Lad: Abram paid tithe before there ever was a ceremonial law. (Genesis 14:20). The writer of Hebrews sanctioned the tithe collected by Melchizedek as being superior to the tithe collected by the Levites (Hebrews 7:8), all without the slightest hint that such practice was to be stopped.
Kelly: Nothing Abram did concerning tithing is an example followed by any church: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not a holy tithe from a holy land, (4) he kept nothing and (5) he gave the 90% to the king of Sodom. Hebrews 7:12 says that the law of tithing must of necessity be changed and that "change" was its "disannulment" in Hebrews 7:18.
Lad: Jesus commanded the Pharisees not to neglect tithing in addition to obeying the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23).
Kelly: According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus came under the jurisdiction of the whole law in order to redeem those under the law. Mt 23:23 is a discussion of "matters of the law." Jesus could hot have told his Gentile disciples to pay tithes to him.
Lad: Finally, Paul clearly tells us that the New Covenant Church was to operate financially in the same way as the Old Covenant Church.
"Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." (1 Corinthians 9:13-14). The New Covenant church is designed to function financially "in the same way" that the Old Covenant church functioned, via the tithe.
Kelly: Your argument is self-defeating. It requires the New Covenant church to exactly copy every single part of the Temple support system --not merely tithing. Verse 14 is includes all of verses 7-13. The principle is that each occupation has its own support system. Gospel workers are sustained by gospel (not law) principles. Verses 12 and 15-19 counter your argument. So also does Acts 20:29-35.
Lad: Throughout the Scriptures, the giving of tithes and offerings is an integral part of the saints' worship. The tithe belongs to God (Leviticus 27:30), and therefore we have the duty to render it to Him (Matthew 22:21).
Kelly: Tithes were always only food from inside God's holy land of Israel.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Wednesday, September 30, 2009
Monday, September 28, 2009
Reply to Anthony Liebenberg on Tithing, LIfe Groups
Reply to LIFE GROUPS, Anthony Liebenberg, on Tithing
http://www.life-church.co.za/lifegroups/?p=122
GODS PLANNING FOR FINANCIAL BLESSING
LIFE CHURCH, 13 SEPT 09 EDITED
Tony: 2 Corinthians 9:6-11
Russ: This text is never used in the discussion. It is about freewill giving and not tithing.
…………………………..
Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM
1. God established a Covenant with Abraham.
2. Those of us who belong to Christ are the children of Abraham.
3. Three specific things that Abraham did financially.
GENESIS 12 -24: (v1-3), (v7), (v14-18).
GENESIS 15:5, 6
……………………..
Russ: This is an amazing piece of out-of-context twisting of God's Word. The last part of Genesis 12 is totally ignored, yet that is where God financially blessed Abraham after he had lied to Pharaoh.
……………………..
Tony: ABRAHAMS BLESSINGS ARE YOURS
Galatians 3: 7-9, 14-18,29
………………………
Russ: Even more incredible, Tony omits Galatians 3:10-13 where Paul said that Jesus ended the curse of the law and that law keeping cannot bring blessings unless it is total Old Covenant law keeping.
Tony: WE MUST CHOOSE TO OBEY
Deuteronomy 28 Blessings and Curses “1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.
2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:…
“15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:…”
Russ: The only way to be blessed under Old Covenant conditions is to obey all 600+ commands of the law (which is impossible). What is the point of quoting these texts?
Tony: Deuteronomy 30 Choose!
“19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live,…”
We must align ourselves with the ways of God.
Then the blessing of God is ours.
Russ: The New Covenant Church and Gentiles have never been under the Old Covenant of Deuteronomy 30. God is now applying strictly New Covenant principles. Tony is rambling without a coherent consistent hermeneutic.
Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM. Abraham is a pattern for us.
Russ: Abraham is only an example for us when what he did was by faith alone. He is not an example when he lied to Pharaoh or paid mandatory pagan tithes to Melchizedek.
Tony: 1. Abraham tithed
Russ: Nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is an example for Christians: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) not holy tithes from God's holy land, (3) only once, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Tony: 2. Abraham walked blameless before God
Russ: In imputed righteousness; not in reality.
Tony: 3. Abraham gave an offering
Russ: His freewill offerings at his stone altars are examples of his faith to be followed.
Tony: 1. Abraham tithed; Genesis 14;a18-20
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.”
Russ: Abraham gave him a tenth of pagan spoils of war.
According to the great majority of Bible commentaries discussing 14:21, pagan Canaanite custom was involved in Abraham's actions in Genesis 14. The Bible does not say that he gave of his own free will.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: The Bible nowhere says that! True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which been miraculously increased by God's hand from His holy land. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor anybody who lived outside Israel --like us.
Tony: Tithe was before Israel. Tithe was before the law
Russ: Pagan spoils of war ---not holy tithes. Every pagan nation of Abraham's time had tithes, idol worship, child sacrifice and temple prostitution.
Tony: Tithe was re-enforced in the law.
Russ: The two were completely different. One came from pagans and defiled pagan soil. The holy tithe came from God's hand from His holy land.
Tony: Tithing was confirmed by Jesus
Russ: According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law to redeem those under the law. Jesus could not have told his Gentile disciples to tithe.
Tony: The New Testament church tithed
Russ: According to Acts 21:20 the Jewish Christians continued to tithe to the Temple system. There is no text which indicates that the Church ever tithed ot its leaders for many centuries after Calvary.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: This is not in God's Word.
Tony: Tithe on all your increase
Russ: The OT tithe was food from inside Israel which God had miraculously increased.
Tony: Tithe regularly
Russ: Why do you not obey any of the tithing statute of Numbers 18? (1) food from Israel, (2) Levitical tithe to servants of the ministers, (3) only one per cent to the ministers, (4) only ministers enter the sanctuary, (5) ministers kill anybody else who tries to worship God directly and (6) tithe-recipients forfeit property ownership.
Tony: It is not an offering, it belongs to God
Russ: It belongs to Old Covenant Levites and priests. In the New Covenant all believers are priests and the Temple of God is within each believer.
Tony: If you do not return to God his tithe, how can you expect him to bless you.
Russ: This is not found in the New Covenant to the Church after Calvary.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: Saying this a million times does not make it true.
Tony: Tithing will protect you financially
Russ: There are tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations and remain in deep poverty.
Tony: Offerings are gifts above our tithe
Russ: This is not part of the New Covenant.
Tony: Begin to bring all your tithe into the church you belong to.
Russ: That means that God is more interested in the money than correct theology. Thus He honors Mormons, JWs, SDAs, Baptists, Methodists, and Pentecostals alike -- as long as they tithe.
Tony: 2. Repent of any and all financial wrongdoing
Russ: Do you own and inherit property in violation of the tithing law?
Tony: Three Key Financial Principles: Tithing : will protect you financially
Russ: God cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to one of over 600 Old Covenant conditional promises.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://www.life-church.co.za/lifegroups/?p=122
GODS PLANNING FOR FINANCIAL BLESSING
LIFE CHURCH, 13 SEPT 09 EDITED
Tony: 2 Corinthians 9:6-11
Russ: This text is never used in the discussion. It is about freewill giving and not tithing.
…………………………..
Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM
1. God established a Covenant with Abraham.
2. Those of us who belong to Christ are the children of Abraham.
3. Three specific things that Abraham did financially.
GENESIS 12 -24: (v1-3), (v7), (v14-18).
GENESIS 15:5, 6
……………………..
Russ: This is an amazing piece of out-of-context twisting of God's Word. The last part of Genesis 12 is totally ignored, yet that is where God financially blessed Abraham after he had lied to Pharaoh.
……………………..
Tony: ABRAHAMS BLESSINGS ARE YOURS
Galatians 3: 7-9, 14-18,29
………………………
Russ: Even more incredible, Tony omits Galatians 3:10-13 where Paul said that Jesus ended the curse of the law and that law keeping cannot bring blessings unless it is total Old Covenant law keeping.
Tony: WE MUST CHOOSE TO OBEY
Deuteronomy 28 Blessings and Curses “1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.
2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:…
“15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:…”
Russ: The only way to be blessed under Old Covenant conditions is to obey all 600+ commands of the law (which is impossible). What is the point of quoting these texts?
Tony: Deuteronomy 30 Choose!
“19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live,…”
We must align ourselves with the ways of God.
Then the blessing of God is ours.
Russ: The New Covenant Church and Gentiles have never been under the Old Covenant of Deuteronomy 30. God is now applying strictly New Covenant principles. Tony is rambling without a coherent consistent hermeneutic.
Tony: THREE LESSONS FROM ABRAHAM. Abraham is a pattern for us.
Russ: Abraham is only an example for us when what he did was by faith alone. He is not an example when he lied to Pharaoh or paid mandatory pagan tithes to Melchizedek.
Tony: 1. Abraham tithed
Russ: Nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is an example for Christians: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) not holy tithes from God's holy land, (3) only once, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Tony: 2. Abraham walked blameless before God
Russ: In imputed righteousness; not in reality.
Tony: 3. Abraham gave an offering
Russ: His freewill offerings at his stone altars are examples of his faith to be followed.
Tony: 1. Abraham tithed; Genesis 14;a18-20
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.”
Russ: Abraham gave him a tenth of pagan spoils of war.
According to the great majority of Bible commentaries discussing 14:21, pagan Canaanite custom was involved in Abraham's actions in Genesis 14. The Bible does not say that he gave of his own free will.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: The Bible nowhere says that! True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which been miraculously increased by God's hand from His holy land. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor anybody who lived outside Israel --like us.
Tony: Tithe was before Israel. Tithe was before the law
Russ: Pagan spoils of war ---not holy tithes. Every pagan nation of Abraham's time had tithes, idol worship, child sacrifice and temple prostitution.
Tony: Tithe was re-enforced in the law.
Russ: The two were completely different. One came from pagans and defiled pagan soil. The holy tithe came from God's hand from His holy land.
Tony: Tithing was confirmed by Jesus
Russ: According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law to redeem those under the law. Jesus could not have told his Gentile disciples to tithe.
Tony: The New Testament church tithed
Russ: According to Acts 21:20 the Jewish Christians continued to tithe to the Temple system. There is no text which indicates that the Church ever tithed ot its leaders for many centuries after Calvary.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: This is not in God's Word.
Tony: Tithe on all your increase
Russ: The OT tithe was food from inside Israel which God had miraculously increased.
Tony: Tithe regularly
Russ: Why do you not obey any of the tithing statute of Numbers 18? (1) food from Israel, (2) Levitical tithe to servants of the ministers, (3) only one per cent to the ministers, (4) only ministers enter the sanctuary, (5) ministers kill anybody else who tries to worship God directly and (6) tithe-recipients forfeit property ownership.
Tony: It is not an offering, it belongs to God
Russ: It belongs to Old Covenant Levites and priests. In the New Covenant all believers are priests and the Temple of God is within each believer.
Tony: If you do not return to God his tithe, how can you expect him to bless you.
Russ: This is not found in the New Covenant to the Church after Calvary.
Tony: Tithing is a financial principle and an established practice that is a vital part of the Kingdom of God.
Russ: Saying this a million times does not make it true.
Tony: Tithing will protect you financially
Russ: There are tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations and remain in deep poverty.
Tony: Offerings are gifts above our tithe
Russ: This is not part of the New Covenant.
Tony: Begin to bring all your tithe into the church you belong to.
Russ: That means that God is more interested in the money than correct theology. Thus He honors Mormons, JWs, SDAs, Baptists, Methodists, and Pentecostals alike -- as long as they tithe.
Tony: 2. Repent of any and all financial wrongdoing
Russ: Do you own and inherit property in violation of the tithing law?
Tony: Three Key Financial Principles: Tithing : will protect you financially
Russ: God cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to one of over 600 Old Covenant conditional promises.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Reply to Strictly Gospel on Tithing
Reply to STRICTLY GOSPEL on Tithing
http://strictlygospel.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/god-money-and-you/
Note: Long article precedes this. Edited.
Strictly: Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today, lest . . . when your heart is lifted up . . . then you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.’ . . . For it is He who gives you power to get wealth . . .” (Deuteronomy 8:7-18, emphasis added throughout).
Kelly: It is interesting that you quote a text which proves that the whole law either stands or falls together. The Law was only given to Old Covenant Israel as a whole. The only way to be blessed by law-keeping is to keep all 600+ commands.
Strictly: Not only do the earth and its wealth belong to God, but we should ponder that even the “power to get wealth,” mentioned in the above passage, is a gift from Him.
Kelly: You say all of this to lead up to teaching tithing. However, while all the earth and its wealth also belonged to in the Old Testament, that logic was never used to accept tithes from outside God's unique holy land of Israel.
Strictly: If a person’s life is dedicated to God’s service, so will be a portion of his wealth or income. God’s Word tells us to “honor the LORD with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase” (Proverbs 3:9). If God is a priority in your life, you will desire to honor Him with your life and your time—as represented by your income, your money.
Kelly: While this is true, it is not true if used as a lead-in to teach tithing. Biblical firstfruits were only a very small token offering of food from inisdie Israel per Deuteronomy 26:1-4, Nehemiah 10:35-38 and many other texts. According to 1st Timothy 5:8 a Christian should give his/her first to buy essential medicine, food and reasonable shelter for the family --otherwise we are worst than the infidels.
Strictly: God reveals in His Word that one way to do this is to tithe to Him. Tithing is giving the first 10 percent of one’s income (”increase,” Deuteronomy 14:22) to God.
Kelly: Your long article was a lead-in to ttithing. God never commanded the Church or Gentiles to tithe to him in the New Covenant after Calvary. You define tithing wrong. In God's Word the tithe was always only food from inside Israel and the increase was from God's miracle hand in the form of food. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctaury worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel --like ourselves.
Strictly: To tithe is to give God what is His, not ours.
Kelly: The definition of food from His holy land never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Strictly: However, even though it is really all His (Psalm 50:12; 89:11), He lays claim to just the first 10 percent of our increase (Leviticus 27:30).
Kelly: Read all of Leviticus 27:30-34. (1) only food, (2) the tenth, not the first, (3) not even the best and (4) part of the whole law for Israel given on Mt Sinai.
Strictly: Obviously we have no way of giving cash or a check directly to God in person. Our Creator has directed, through the ages, that the tithe that is His be given to those on earth whom He designates to receive it, those actively doing His work.
Kelly: This is not found in the New Covenant for the Church after Calvary.
Strictly: Abraham, the “father” of the faithful (Romans 4:16), gave tithes to Melchizedek, God’s representative (Genesis 14:16-20).
Kelly: Abraham is only an example to us in things he did "by faith." The Bible does not say that Abraham tithed "by faith" --it was more likely in obedience to common custom know around the world in his time. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is an example for Christians to follow: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not a true holy tithe from inside God's holy land, (4) kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Strictly: Later, under the terms of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel, God assigned the tithe to be given to the tribe of Levi for the work of the tabernacle and later the temple (Numbers 18:21).
Kelly: Tell all of it. Numbers 18 is the statute-ordinance of tithing. It requires those who gave the first whole Levitical tithe to (1) give it to the servants of the ministers, (2) only give the ministers one per cent, (3) kill anybody other than mininsters who dared to enter the sanctuary, (4) kill anybody else who dared to worship God directly and (5) forfeit property ownership. NONE of this part of tithing is done today.
Strictly: However, since Jesus Christ’s resurrection to be the High Priest of the New Covenant (Hebrews 6:20), the tithe no longer goes to the Levites but to His Church and the faithful ministers who serve under Him in proclaiming His true gospel and caring for His flock (Hebrews 7:12).
Kelly: Wrong. Hebrews 7:12 says that there was a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5) and that "change" was its "disannullment" of the "commandment going before" in Hebrews 7:18 because of the better new covenant of 7:19.
Strictly: “Now therefore, our God, we thank You and praise Your glorious name. But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly as this? For all things come from You, and of Your own we have given to You” (1 Chronicles 29:13- 14).
Kelly: "Offer so willingly" refers to freewill offerings which paid for the Temple --not to tithes. According to 1st Chronicles, chapters 23 to 26 the tithe-receiivng Levites were guards, builders, bakers, choir members, muscians, treasurers and poliltical rulers for the king. Why is this ignored by modern tithe-teachers?
Strictly: Another need is that we learn spiritual maturity and develop God’s giving nature (Acts 20:35; 2 Corinthians 9:7).
Kelly: You ignored the context of Acts 20:29-35. Paul was boasting to church elders that he had been totally self-supporting and encouraged them to follow his example and care for the needy. Today the situation is reversed.
Strictly: In the book of Malachi, God puts into stark language the spiritual issues related to tithing: “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ‘In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now in this,’ says the LORD of hosts” (Malachi 3:8-10).
KellY: Of couse you will use this out-of-context verse only addressed to Old Covenant Israel. Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews and it never did apply to the Church. The curse of the law is removed in Galatians 3:13 and believers are dead to the law per Romans 7:4.
God cannot bless New Covenant believers beceuae of their obedience to vanished Old Covenant conditiohal promises per Heb 8:13. New Covenant giving is: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and others. That was plenty for the early church and should suffice today. For many it means more than 10% and for many it means much less.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://strictlygospel.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/god-money-and-you/
Note: Long article precedes this. Edited.
Strictly: Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today, lest . . . when your heart is lifted up . . . then you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.’ . . . For it is He who gives you power to get wealth . . .” (Deuteronomy 8:7-18, emphasis added throughout).
Kelly: It is interesting that you quote a text which proves that the whole law either stands or falls together. The Law was only given to Old Covenant Israel as a whole. The only way to be blessed by law-keeping is to keep all 600+ commands.
Strictly: Not only do the earth and its wealth belong to God, but we should ponder that even the “power to get wealth,” mentioned in the above passage, is a gift from Him.
Kelly: You say all of this to lead up to teaching tithing. However, while all the earth and its wealth also belonged to in the Old Testament, that logic was never used to accept tithes from outside God's unique holy land of Israel.
Strictly: If a person’s life is dedicated to God’s service, so will be a portion of his wealth or income. God’s Word tells us to “honor the LORD with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase” (Proverbs 3:9). If God is a priority in your life, you will desire to honor Him with your life and your time—as represented by your income, your money.
Kelly: While this is true, it is not true if used as a lead-in to teach tithing. Biblical firstfruits were only a very small token offering of food from inisdie Israel per Deuteronomy 26:1-4, Nehemiah 10:35-38 and many other texts. According to 1st Timothy 5:8 a Christian should give his/her first to buy essential medicine, food and reasonable shelter for the family --otherwise we are worst than the infidels.
Strictly: God reveals in His Word that one way to do this is to tithe to Him. Tithing is giving the first 10 percent of one’s income (”increase,” Deuteronomy 14:22) to God.
Kelly: Your long article was a lead-in to ttithing. God never commanded the Church or Gentiles to tithe to him in the New Covenant after Calvary. You define tithing wrong. In God's Word the tithe was always only food from inside Israel and the increase was from God's miracle hand in the form of food. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctaury worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel --like ourselves.
Strictly: To tithe is to give God what is His, not ours.
Kelly: The definition of food from His holy land never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Strictly: However, even though it is really all His (Psalm 50:12; 89:11), He lays claim to just the first 10 percent of our increase (Leviticus 27:30).
Kelly: Read all of Leviticus 27:30-34. (1) only food, (2) the tenth, not the first, (3) not even the best and (4) part of the whole law for Israel given on Mt Sinai.
Strictly: Obviously we have no way of giving cash or a check directly to God in person. Our Creator has directed, through the ages, that the tithe that is His be given to those on earth whom He designates to receive it, those actively doing His work.
Kelly: This is not found in the New Covenant for the Church after Calvary.
Strictly: Abraham, the “father” of the faithful (Romans 4:16), gave tithes to Melchizedek, God’s representative (Genesis 14:16-20).
Kelly: Abraham is only an example to us in things he did "by faith." The Bible does not say that Abraham tithed "by faith" --it was more likely in obedience to common custom know around the world in his time. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is an example for Christians to follow: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not a true holy tithe from inside God's holy land, (4) kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Strictly: Later, under the terms of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel, God assigned the tithe to be given to the tribe of Levi for the work of the tabernacle and later the temple (Numbers 18:21).
Kelly: Tell all of it. Numbers 18 is the statute-ordinance of tithing. It requires those who gave the first whole Levitical tithe to (1) give it to the servants of the ministers, (2) only give the ministers one per cent, (3) kill anybody other than mininsters who dared to enter the sanctuary, (4) kill anybody else who dared to worship God directly and (5) forfeit property ownership. NONE of this part of tithing is done today.
Strictly: However, since Jesus Christ’s resurrection to be the High Priest of the New Covenant (Hebrews 6:20), the tithe no longer goes to the Levites but to His Church and the faithful ministers who serve under Him in proclaiming His true gospel and caring for His flock (Hebrews 7:12).
Kelly: Wrong. Hebrews 7:12 says that there was a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5) and that "change" was its "disannullment" of the "commandment going before" in Hebrews 7:18 because of the better new covenant of 7:19.
Strictly: “Now therefore, our God, we thank You and praise Your glorious name. But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly as this? For all things come from You, and of Your own we have given to You” (1 Chronicles 29:13- 14).
Kelly: "Offer so willingly" refers to freewill offerings which paid for the Temple --not to tithes. According to 1st Chronicles, chapters 23 to 26 the tithe-receiivng Levites were guards, builders, bakers, choir members, muscians, treasurers and poliltical rulers for the king. Why is this ignored by modern tithe-teachers?
Strictly: Another need is that we learn spiritual maturity and develop God’s giving nature (Acts 20:35; 2 Corinthians 9:7).
Kelly: You ignored the context of Acts 20:29-35. Paul was boasting to church elders that he had been totally self-supporting and encouraged them to follow his example and care for the needy. Today the situation is reversed.
Strictly: In the book of Malachi, God puts into stark language the spiritual issues related to tithing: “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, ‘In what way have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now in this,’ says the LORD of hosts” (Malachi 3:8-10).
KellY: Of couse you will use this out-of-context verse only addressed to Old Covenant Israel. Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews and it never did apply to the Church. The curse of the law is removed in Galatians 3:13 and believers are dead to the law per Romans 7:4.
God cannot bless New Covenant believers beceuae of their obedience to vanished Old Covenant conditiohal promises per Heb 8:13. New Covenant giving is: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and others. That was plenty for the early church and should suffice today. For many it means more than 10% and for many it means much less.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Monday, September 21, 2009
Reply to D Thrasher -4
Reply to D Thrasher Tithing Misunderstood -4
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/tithing-misunderstood-summation/ edited
Thrash: You "trash" us with the same texts which we could use to trash you. According to you every church and denomination which teaches tithing is God-led and all of the ones who disagree are full of "dribble."
We have the "audacity" to challenge you to an in-depth study of God's Word and all you want to do is attack us instead of attacking what we discern is God's message. I have not read a word from you in defending your viewpoint and countering our argument. Where is your "holy boldness" and "Berean" attitude? We only want an honest discussion of the Word of God in context.
Yes, we are "eager" to challenge anyone who disagrees with us on the subject of tithing. Thank you. We take that as a compliment. We fall into the same category as Jesus, Peter, Paul, Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley in proclaiming our different point of view.
Thrash: "I don’t want their venomous dribble on my comments page."
Russ: Why did you blog to an open forum? Did you not blog with the full intent of influencing others towards your point of view? Why did you even allow comments? Do you only want mushy comments that blush over how wonderful you explain things? If you blog openly and ask for comments openly then you look rather silly calling opposing comments "dribble." That says more about you than others.
Thrash: The bible is God inspired. Man’s writings have no particular substance to them. John 16:13 states, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and will show you things to come.”
Russ: Yes, the Bible is inspired but it must be understood in its context. Yes, I also love John 16:13 and quote it often.
Trash: In the Book of Hebrews chapter seven, Melchisedec, king of Salem, which is king of Peace, and Priest of the Most High God (who was a forerunner of our present day Heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ) received a tenth of the spoils Abraham took from his enemies as a tithe long before the Jews under the Old Testament Law received the commandment to tithe. So tithing did not originate with the Jews and was being practiced long before the Jews came out of Egypt and entered the promise land.
Russ: I wholly agree with your conclusion above. However you want to take that conclusion and twist it into something which is not stateed in God's Word. What does your conclusion prove? Idolatry, child sacrifice and temple prostitution were also practiced in most nations surrounding Abraham. Merely being very old and very common does not make something moral or eternal. In fact, nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is copied by any church today. Is that true or not?
Thrash: God only made tithing a commandment for the Jews in the Old Testament because His people had demonstrated in the desert they were by nature, greedy, selfish, whiners, who had a hard time following His instructions. His priest would have starved to death on the Jews freewill offerings if God had not imposed this commandment upon the people to support them and His Tabernacle. People haven’t changed since Old Testament times because the devil hasn’t changed his Modus Operandi.
Russ: You are re-writing God's Word.
Thrash: There is an old saying, “Give until it hurts and then give some more.” The athlete have a similar saying, “No pain. No gain.” But, the devil tells his people to get all they can while the getting is good.
Russ: This is a good description of sacricial freewill giving which is better than tithing.
Thrash: Abraham loved the Lord God like the athlete loves fame. Abraham had a thankful, giving heart; that is why he is the biblical example of God’s willingness to bless a man beyond the norm because the man was appreciative of the many things God did for him.
Russ: Read all of Genesis 12. God blessed Abraham after he sinned --not after he tithed pagan spoils of war in chapter 14.
Thrash: In Genesis 14 the bible says Melchisedec came out to meet Abraham and brought bread and wine with him to refuel Abraham’s famished body and then blessed Abraham.
Russ: You are still re-writing the Bible.
Thrash: and Abraham gave to Melchisedec a tenth of the spoil he had taken from his enemies to show his appreciation for the blessings the Lord God had bestowed upon him. Abraham tithed to the Melchisedec because he wanted to, not because he had to. Hmmm.
Russ: You do not even need God's Word. You simply re-write it. Where does the Bible say that Abraham gave a tithe from spoils of war "to show his appreciation" or "because he wanted to"? If tithing pagan spoils of war was a common Canaanite tradition, then Abraham had no choice in his giving to the priest-king.
Thrash: Do you think this might be a picture of what man is suppose to do to show the Lord their appreciation for the blessings He bestows upon them? I do.
Russ: You conclusion is unblblical. Abraham (1) only tithed pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) nothing of his personal property, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom. His faith, not his tithing, is our example.
Thrash: Our tithes are useful to God only to the extent they can be used to meet the physical needs of the church and those people who are without.
Russ: You do not tithe. You may give more than 10% of freewill offerings, but you do not tithe. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
Thrash: The bible says in Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” This scripture tells us everything and everyone in God’s creation belongs to the Lord God.
Russ: This OT text was never used by Israel to accept tithes from outside His special holy land of Israel. Why do you use it differently?
Thrash: Since God owns everything and everyone; when we tithe to the church; we are actually showing our appreciation to the Lord for the blessings He bestows upon us through the tithe we give just as Abraham did in this story.
Russ: You do not tithe to the church. Tithing was never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary. And neither does the church require its "tithe-recipients" to forfeit property ownership as the tithing law required. Why not?
Thrash: Tithing for the Jews under the Old Testament law was commanded.
Russ: It was only commanded to food producers who lived inside Israel.
Thrash: The Old Testament Law was superceded by the New Testament which is a better covenant, but showing one’s appreciation to God for His blessings never left the heart of thankful man. That is why Abraham tithed, and that is why the churches in this country that are growing and expanding teach tithing.
Russ: There are many churches and Bible colleges which prosper without teaching tithing. The key is personal evangelism --not returning to the Old Covenant.
Thrash: In this picture in Genesis and Hebrews; this action between Melchisedec, Priest of the Most High God and Abraham is a spiritual interaction to show the love of God for Abraham through His blessing, and Abraham’s love for God by showing his appreciation for that blessing.
Russ: You are interpreting.
Thrash: The material items Abraham tithed in this story are mentioned only because that is the best Abraham had to give to Melchisedec in return for the Lord’s blessing.
Russ: No. He only gave pagan spoils of war. He gave nothing of his own personal property.
Thrash: If Abraham would of had something better to offer to the Lord God, he would have.
Russ: There is not a single text about Abraham tithing anything else at any time in his life. If this is so important, why not?
Thrash: Real tithing is done on a spiritual level. It is a spiritual exchange between the Lord and us; and He uses this exchange to test our honesty and sincerity in our relationship with Him. We don’t need a law to help us understand this. All we need is a thankful heart.
Russ: Real New Covenant freewill sacrificial giving is done on a spiritual level. Old Covenant tithing was a cold hard command of the law which "vanished" in Hebrews 8:13.
Now, take us on if you disagree with us. Don't stop now. Take each of our arguments and tell us in detail why you think we are wrong. That is the only way to settle the argument. May God bless our honest research.
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/tithing-misunderstood-summation/ edited
Thrash: You "trash" us with the same texts which we could use to trash you. According to you every church and denomination which teaches tithing is God-led and all of the ones who disagree are full of "dribble."
We have the "audacity" to challenge you to an in-depth study of God's Word and all you want to do is attack us instead of attacking what we discern is God's message. I have not read a word from you in defending your viewpoint and countering our argument. Where is your "holy boldness" and "Berean" attitude? We only want an honest discussion of the Word of God in context.
Yes, we are "eager" to challenge anyone who disagrees with us on the subject of tithing. Thank you. We take that as a compliment. We fall into the same category as Jesus, Peter, Paul, Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley in proclaiming our different point of view.
Thrash: "I don’t want their venomous dribble on my comments page."
Russ: Why did you blog to an open forum? Did you not blog with the full intent of influencing others towards your point of view? Why did you even allow comments? Do you only want mushy comments that blush over how wonderful you explain things? If you blog openly and ask for comments openly then you look rather silly calling opposing comments "dribble." That says more about you than others.
Thrash: The bible is God inspired. Man’s writings have no particular substance to them. John 16:13 states, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and will show you things to come.”
Russ: Yes, the Bible is inspired but it must be understood in its context. Yes, I also love John 16:13 and quote it often.
Trash: In the Book of Hebrews chapter seven, Melchisedec, king of Salem, which is king of Peace, and Priest of the Most High God (who was a forerunner of our present day Heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ) received a tenth of the spoils Abraham took from his enemies as a tithe long before the Jews under the Old Testament Law received the commandment to tithe. So tithing did not originate with the Jews and was being practiced long before the Jews came out of Egypt and entered the promise land.
Russ: I wholly agree with your conclusion above. However you want to take that conclusion and twist it into something which is not stateed in God's Word. What does your conclusion prove? Idolatry, child sacrifice and temple prostitution were also practiced in most nations surrounding Abraham. Merely being very old and very common does not make something moral or eternal. In fact, nothing Abraham did concerning tithing is copied by any church today. Is that true or not?
Thrash: God only made tithing a commandment for the Jews in the Old Testament because His people had demonstrated in the desert they were by nature, greedy, selfish, whiners, who had a hard time following His instructions. His priest would have starved to death on the Jews freewill offerings if God had not imposed this commandment upon the people to support them and His Tabernacle. People haven’t changed since Old Testament times because the devil hasn’t changed his Modus Operandi.
Russ: You are re-writing God's Word.
Thrash: There is an old saying, “Give until it hurts and then give some more.” The athlete have a similar saying, “No pain. No gain.” But, the devil tells his people to get all they can while the getting is good.
Russ: This is a good description of sacricial freewill giving which is better than tithing.
Thrash: Abraham loved the Lord God like the athlete loves fame. Abraham had a thankful, giving heart; that is why he is the biblical example of God’s willingness to bless a man beyond the norm because the man was appreciative of the many things God did for him.
Russ: Read all of Genesis 12. God blessed Abraham after he sinned --not after he tithed pagan spoils of war in chapter 14.
Thrash: In Genesis 14 the bible says Melchisedec came out to meet Abraham and brought bread and wine with him to refuel Abraham’s famished body and then blessed Abraham.
Russ: You are still re-writing the Bible.
Thrash: and Abraham gave to Melchisedec a tenth of the spoil he had taken from his enemies to show his appreciation for the blessings the Lord God had bestowed upon him. Abraham tithed to the Melchisedec because he wanted to, not because he had to. Hmmm.
Russ: You do not even need God's Word. You simply re-write it. Where does the Bible say that Abraham gave a tithe from spoils of war "to show his appreciation" or "because he wanted to"? If tithing pagan spoils of war was a common Canaanite tradition, then Abraham had no choice in his giving to the priest-king.
Thrash: Do you think this might be a picture of what man is suppose to do to show the Lord their appreciation for the blessings He bestows upon them? I do.
Russ: You conclusion is unblblical. Abraham (1) only tithed pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) nothing of his personal property, (4) kept nothing, and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom. His faith, not his tithing, is our example.
Thrash: Our tithes are useful to God only to the extent they can be used to meet the physical needs of the church and those people who are without.
Russ: You do not tithe. You may give more than 10% of freewill offerings, but you do not tithe. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
Thrash: The bible says in Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” This scripture tells us everything and everyone in God’s creation belongs to the Lord God.
Russ: This OT text was never used by Israel to accept tithes from outside His special holy land of Israel. Why do you use it differently?
Thrash: Since God owns everything and everyone; when we tithe to the church; we are actually showing our appreciation to the Lord for the blessings He bestows upon us through the tithe we give just as Abraham did in this story.
Russ: You do not tithe to the church. Tithing was never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary. And neither does the church require its "tithe-recipients" to forfeit property ownership as the tithing law required. Why not?
Thrash: Tithing for the Jews under the Old Testament law was commanded.
Russ: It was only commanded to food producers who lived inside Israel.
Thrash: The Old Testament Law was superceded by the New Testament which is a better covenant, but showing one’s appreciation to God for His blessings never left the heart of thankful man. That is why Abraham tithed, and that is why the churches in this country that are growing and expanding teach tithing.
Russ: There are many churches and Bible colleges which prosper without teaching tithing. The key is personal evangelism --not returning to the Old Covenant.
Thrash: In this picture in Genesis and Hebrews; this action between Melchisedec, Priest of the Most High God and Abraham is a spiritual interaction to show the love of God for Abraham through His blessing, and Abraham’s love for God by showing his appreciation for that blessing.
Russ: You are interpreting.
Thrash: The material items Abraham tithed in this story are mentioned only because that is the best Abraham had to give to Melchisedec in return for the Lord’s blessing.
Russ: No. He only gave pagan spoils of war. He gave nothing of his own personal property.
Thrash: If Abraham would of had something better to offer to the Lord God, he would have.
Russ: There is not a single text about Abraham tithing anything else at any time in his life. If this is so important, why not?
Thrash: Real tithing is done on a spiritual level. It is a spiritual exchange between the Lord and us; and He uses this exchange to test our honesty and sincerity in our relationship with Him. We don’t need a law to help us understand this. All we need is a thankful heart.
Russ: Real New Covenant freewill sacrificial giving is done on a spiritual level. Old Covenant tithing was a cold hard command of the law which "vanished" in Hebrews 8:13.
Now, take us on if you disagree with us. Don't stop now. Take each of our arguments and tell us in detail why you think we are wrong. That is the only way to settle the argument. May God bless our honest research.
9-12-2009: The Death of Honest Journalism
9-12-2009: The Death of Honest Journalism
The death was not sudden but it certainly was evident to all who yearn for honest reporting. Most of the major news media had already been on life-support. Now they have reached up and disconnected their own lifeline of fair and balanced reporting. Death was caused by a slow growing cancer called willful ignorance.
For many years the major news outlets in the United States have been selectively reporting mostly good stories which support Democrats and liberalism while ignoring good stores which support Republican and conservative issues. Who knows when the cancer began?
On 9-12-2009 a crowd appeared in front of our Capital Building in Washington, DC. Initial reports were of several hundred, then several thousand, then perhaps 60 thousand. British news reported as much as 1.7 million. Somebody took a panoramic photo from high in the Capital. Yes, there was a gathering. The photo reveals every available street, avenue, lawn, public space in sight was clogged -- with people. I said "in sight." That means as far as the eye can see in this photo and in numerous other photos which have since appeared.
Was this "news"? Did this qualify as "news"? Or was it such an unimportant event or staged paid actors that should be ignored? The people were of all races and most states. Many had paid high fares to reach Washington DC from far away. They were seriously upset about the direction our nation has been traveling. They carried thousands of different signs which had not been mass produced. There was not a single instance of arrest. The subways were jammed. And the people were polite as they listened to one speech after another.
Where was the reporting of this event from ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN? Would not the reporting of this historical event have increased their viewers and ratings? Again, does this not qualify as a very significant news story? How many much smaller events have been covered by every news outlet? If it had been several dozen or several hundred people protesting a Republican president, it would have certainly been reported.
The major news outlets are dead. Yes, I said DEAD. ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN have died. They have died to honest reporting. They have died to decency. They have died to the neutrality required by and expected by the general population. They have sold their souls to the devil of one particular world view. The majority of ordinary citizens in the United States simply will not tolerate this kind of blatant biased reporting --or lack of reporting. Shame, shame, shame.
I was there. The crowds would have easily filled several large football stadiums. This was middle America who usually stays home, stays quiet and cannot spare time off to protest. They are motivated now. Fox News covered the event. Fox News' ratings skyrocketed. Fox News' advertising revenue increased. Their gain is loss from the other news outlets. And the other news outlets just don't seem to get it. We have simply got to get back to a news reporting system that merely reports the news, stops making the news and stops changing the news by its own commentators.
The least read book in the Bible is Zephaniah. J. Vernon McGee said that Israel had died from an slowly growing cancer of sin. America, wake up.
Russell Earl Kelly
The death was not sudden but it certainly was evident to all who yearn for honest reporting. Most of the major news media had already been on life-support. Now they have reached up and disconnected their own lifeline of fair and balanced reporting. Death was caused by a slow growing cancer called willful ignorance.
For many years the major news outlets in the United States have been selectively reporting mostly good stories which support Democrats and liberalism while ignoring good stores which support Republican and conservative issues. Who knows when the cancer began?
On 9-12-2009 a crowd appeared in front of our Capital Building in Washington, DC. Initial reports were of several hundred, then several thousand, then perhaps 60 thousand. British news reported as much as 1.7 million. Somebody took a panoramic photo from high in the Capital. Yes, there was a gathering. The photo reveals every available street, avenue, lawn, public space in sight was clogged -- with people. I said "in sight." That means as far as the eye can see in this photo and in numerous other photos which have since appeared.
Was this "news"? Did this qualify as "news"? Or was it such an unimportant event or staged paid actors that should be ignored? The people were of all races and most states. Many had paid high fares to reach Washington DC from far away. They were seriously upset about the direction our nation has been traveling. They carried thousands of different signs which had not been mass produced. There was not a single instance of arrest. The subways were jammed. And the people were polite as they listened to one speech after another.
Where was the reporting of this event from ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN? Would not the reporting of this historical event have increased their viewers and ratings? Again, does this not qualify as a very significant news story? How many much smaller events have been covered by every news outlet? If it had been several dozen or several hundred people protesting a Republican president, it would have certainly been reported.
The major news outlets are dead. Yes, I said DEAD. ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN have died. They have died to honest reporting. They have died to decency. They have died to the neutrality required by and expected by the general population. They have sold their souls to the devil of one particular world view. The majority of ordinary citizens in the United States simply will not tolerate this kind of blatant biased reporting --or lack of reporting. Shame, shame, shame.
I was there. The crowds would have easily filled several large football stadiums. This was middle America who usually stays home, stays quiet and cannot spare time off to protest. They are motivated now. Fox News covered the event. Fox News' ratings skyrocketed. Fox News' advertising revenue increased. Their gain is loss from the other news outlets. And the other news outlets just don't seem to get it. We have simply got to get back to a news reporting system that merely reports the news, stops making the news and stops changing the news by its own commentators.
The least read book in the Bible is Zephaniah. J. Vernon McGee said that Israel had died from an slowly growing cancer of sin. America, wake up.
Russell Earl Kelly
Saturday, September 19, 2009
Let Us All Teach Tithing Exactly as Did the Old Covenant
Let Us All Teach Tithing Exactly as Did the Old Covenant
Num 18:21-32
1. Tithes to servants of the priests:
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
2. Kill ordinary bellevers who attempt to worship God as priests:
22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
3. Levite servants do most of the work
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
4. Tithe recipients cannot own property:
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
5. Preists/ministers only get one per cent
25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
6. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
7. Priests get the best tenth of the tenth:
28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.
8. Tithes were only food.
30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
9. Kill minsters who do not obey all of the tithing lalw.
32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.
Num 18:21-32
1. Tithes to servants of the priests:
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
2. Kill ordinary bellevers who attempt to worship God as priests:
22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
3. Levite servants do most of the work
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
4. Tithe recipients cannot own property:
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
5. Preists/ministers only get one per cent
25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
6. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
7. Priests get the best tenth of the tenth:
28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.
8. Tithes were only food.
30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
9. Kill minsters who do not obey all of the tithing lalw.
32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.
Thursday, September 17, 2009
Reply to D Thrash, part 2 tithing
Reply to D Thrasher on Tithing, Part 2
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/tithing-misunderstood-part-two/ edited
Thrash: God’s purpose for instituting the tithe was so much more than giving a commandment to the Israelites to get a part of their income. Thinking such as this is pure foolishness, but you hear it all the time from well meaning people in the church.
Kelly: You have invented a straw man to attack.
Thrash: God has no need of our material things because God is a Spirit … The church has the same needs as our home. …
Kelly: The "church" is not a building nor an institution. The "church" is an assembly of beleivers. Perhaps if the institution was not burdened with so many worldly things it could make better use of its money.
Thrash: So to combat our selfish natures God instituted the tithe and commanded us to pay it to the local church so we could overcome our fear of being without and He could bless us to the extent we would let Him.
Kelly: There is not a shred of truth in your last sattement. (1) God never instituted the tihe for the Church or Gentiles. (2) God never commanded New Covenant believers after Calvary to tithe.
Thrash: When people won’t tithe; God cannot bless them because the amount of blessings one receives from God is directly proportionate to the amount they give to God.
Kelly: The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. You do not define the word "law," you do not distinguish between the old and new covenant and you previously said that the entire law of the Old Covenant is still relevant to the church (which is completely wrong).
Thrash: And when people don’t tithe; those people who would have been blessed by our tithe will not receive the blessing God wanted to bestow upon them.
Kelly: You cannot expect God to bless you for obedience to an annulled Old Covenant when you are breaking most of that same Old Covenant. See Galatians 3:10-13.
Thrash: … When we don’t tithe; people who could have been helped will not be helped.
Kelly: The same thing can be said of people who do not give as the New Covenant suggests -- freely, generously, sacrificially, joyfully, not by commandment and motivated by love for God and the lost.
Thrash: … there are tens of thousands of people dying every day because most people won’t share even a small portion of what they have been blessed with.
Kelly: There are also tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations and playing the lottery every day who stay bogged down in poverty without an education. We only hear the success stories.
Thrash: When we fail to do what we have been commanded: people die. And when people die who could have been helped, but their help was withheld from them, God will hold the person withholding their help accountable for the death of that person in need.
Kelly: Read the tithing law in Numbers 18. So-called tithe-reciptients fail to obey any of the tithng commandment. (1) tithes are only food from inside Israel, (2) the first whole tithe to the servants of the priests, (3) only 1% to the ministers, (4) tithe-recipients cannot own property, and (5) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
Thrash: … The church has a lot of blood on its hands for which it will be held accountable …
Kelly: Tithing was never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary as part of the New Covenant. However, the Church does have a lot of blood on its hands for not teacing true doctrines. It talks more about money than it does salvation.
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/tithing-misunderstood-part-two/ edited
Thrash: God’s purpose for instituting the tithe was so much more than giving a commandment to the Israelites to get a part of their income. Thinking such as this is pure foolishness, but you hear it all the time from well meaning people in the church.
Kelly: You have invented a straw man to attack.
Thrash: God has no need of our material things because God is a Spirit … The church has the same needs as our home. …
Kelly: The "church" is not a building nor an institution. The "church" is an assembly of beleivers. Perhaps if the institution was not burdened with so many worldly things it could make better use of its money.
Thrash: So to combat our selfish natures God instituted the tithe and commanded us to pay it to the local church so we could overcome our fear of being without and He could bless us to the extent we would let Him.
Kelly: There is not a shred of truth in your last sattement. (1) God never instituted the tihe for the Church or Gentiles. (2) God never commanded New Covenant believers after Calvary to tithe.
Thrash: When people won’t tithe; God cannot bless them because the amount of blessings one receives from God is directly proportionate to the amount they give to God.
Kelly: The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. You do not define the word "law," you do not distinguish between the old and new covenant and you previously said that the entire law of the Old Covenant is still relevant to the church (which is completely wrong).
Thrash: And when people don’t tithe; those people who would have been blessed by our tithe will not receive the blessing God wanted to bestow upon them.
Kelly: You cannot expect God to bless you for obedience to an annulled Old Covenant when you are breaking most of that same Old Covenant. See Galatians 3:10-13.
Thrash: … When we don’t tithe; people who could have been helped will not be helped.
Kelly: The same thing can be said of people who do not give as the New Covenant suggests -- freely, generously, sacrificially, joyfully, not by commandment and motivated by love for God and the lost.
Thrash: … there are tens of thousands of people dying every day because most people won’t share even a small portion of what they have been blessed with.
Kelly: There are also tens of thousands of ghetto dwellers who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations and playing the lottery every day who stay bogged down in poverty without an education. We only hear the success stories.
Thrash: When we fail to do what we have been commanded: people die. And when people die who could have been helped, but their help was withheld from them, God will hold the person withholding their help accountable for the death of that person in need.
Kelly: Read the tithing law in Numbers 18. So-called tithe-reciptients fail to obey any of the tithng commandment. (1) tithes are only food from inside Israel, (2) the first whole tithe to the servants of the priests, (3) only 1% to the ministers, (4) tithe-recipients cannot own property, and (5) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
Thrash: … The church has a lot of blood on its hands for which it will be held accountable …
Kelly: Tithing was never commanded to the Church or Gentiles after Calvary as part of the New Covenant. However, the Church does have a lot of blood on its hands for not teacing true doctrines. It talks more about money than it does salvation.
Reply to D Thrasher on Tithing
D THRASHER
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/tithing-misunderstood/ EDITED
Tithing Misunderstood (Part One)
Thrash: There are two groups of people in the church. Those who support tithing and those who don’t. Those who don’t, reason, “Since tithing is not specifically mentioned in the New Testament it is not required of God’s people living in these times.”
Kelly: We follow a consistent hermeneutic when brining material from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The Church and Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant. Only that part of the Old Covenant which is eternal and moral had been repeated in the New Covenant after Calvary in terms of grace and faith rather than law -- and tithing is not included.
Thrash: Those who support tithing say, “The New Testament is God expanding upon the Old Testament and everything God instituted in the Old Testament is not only relevant for today, but was expanded upon for the benefit of the people who would undergo the new birth experience.”
Kelly: It is absurd to say that "everything God instituted in th Old Testament [only for national Israel] is not only relevant …" The Church has overwhelming rejected the vast majority fo the Old Covenant law as IRRELEVANT. It does not kill disobedient children, idolaters, Saturday sabbath breakers and adulterers. It does not forbid wearing clothing of mixed fabric, etc, etc, etc. Most of what is called holy and most holy in Leviticus is now called irrelevant.
Thrash: For example; in the gospel of Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17, Jesus had this to say about the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets (prophecies) but to fulfill.” So it is clear Jesus did not come to do away with the law or the prophecies spoken by the prophets of old. But He did say, ”He came to fulfill them.”
Kelly: You do not understand Matthew 5:17-18 because you ignore the fact that 5:19-48 includes ALL three parts of the law -- including the Ten Commandments, statutes and judgments. Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law by his sinless life and set it aside at Calvary when the veil ripped. According to Ephesians 2:13-17, Colossians 2:13-17 and Hebrews 7:18 the law has been abrogated. According to Romans 7:4 believers are dead to the law and the law cannot tell a dead person what to do. According to Romans 8:1-3 the New Covenant law is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death." Believers obey because they are new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Thrash: Here is another thought to chew on. It would have been impossible for Jesus to destroy God’s Word because He is the Word of God (John 1:14) and do away with the Law because He Himself was the Lord God who burnt those laws into a mountainside for Moses to deliver to the Israelites in Exodus chapter twenty.
Kelly: Your logic forces believers to obey all 600+ commandments of the law. Your logic says that NONE of the law has been done away for anybody. Please define the way you use the word "law."
Thrash: God does not have one set of laws for heaven and another set of laws for His earthly kingdom.
Kelly: Do you really think that the Ten Commandments and scrolls of the law have been inside God's Most Holy Place in heaven from eternity past before man was created? Cannot a nation have one covenant with one nation and an entirely different covenant with another nation? God's Old Covenant law was only with national Israel. God treats New Covenant believers under New Covenant provisions --not under Old Covenant provisions.
Thrash: Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” What this means is God’s will is His Law. It’s the law in heaven and it’s the law on earth.
Kelly: This is illogical. God's will for national Israel was the Old Covenant. God's will for the Church is the New Covenant. God did not have to remind himself that it was sin to have any other gods before himself with that same law in heaven.
Thrash: Whether we understand it or whether or not we acknowledge it as being so; God’s will or God’s law is in force throughout His kingdom and governs all of God’s creation.
Kelly: God commanded national Israel NOT to share its covenant with any other nation. How can this be true if he wanted all nations to be under the same covenant law?
Thrash: (deleted long ramble) Matthew 5:20 saying; “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness (speaking to His followers) shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisee, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”(deleted long ramble)
Kelly: You quoted Matthew 5:17-18 and began again at 5:20 plus. Neat. You omitted 5:19 which forces you to obey all 600+ commandments of the law.
Thrash: Be sure to read Part Two in which I continue with this line of thought from Matthew 25 on unselfish giving and the consequences of our refusing to tithe and give gifts to those in need. Dthrash
Kelly: Your "line of thought" has no consistent definition of "law" and is absurd.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://dthrasher.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/tithing-misunderstood/ EDITED
Tithing Misunderstood (Part One)
Thrash: There are two groups of people in the church. Those who support tithing and those who don’t. Those who don’t, reason, “Since tithing is not specifically mentioned in the New Testament it is not required of God’s people living in these times.”
Kelly: We follow a consistent hermeneutic when brining material from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The Church and Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant. Only that part of the Old Covenant which is eternal and moral had been repeated in the New Covenant after Calvary in terms of grace and faith rather than law -- and tithing is not included.
Thrash: Those who support tithing say, “The New Testament is God expanding upon the Old Testament and everything God instituted in the Old Testament is not only relevant for today, but was expanded upon for the benefit of the people who would undergo the new birth experience.”
Kelly: It is absurd to say that "everything God instituted in th Old Testament [only for national Israel] is not only relevant …" The Church has overwhelming rejected the vast majority fo the Old Covenant law as IRRELEVANT. It does not kill disobedient children, idolaters, Saturday sabbath breakers and adulterers. It does not forbid wearing clothing of mixed fabric, etc, etc, etc. Most of what is called holy and most holy in Leviticus is now called irrelevant.
Thrash: For example; in the gospel of Matthew chapter 5 and verse 17, Jesus had this to say about the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 20. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets (prophecies) but to fulfill.” So it is clear Jesus did not come to do away with the law or the prophecies spoken by the prophets of old. But He did say, ”He came to fulfill them.”
Kelly: You do not understand Matthew 5:17-18 because you ignore the fact that 5:19-48 includes ALL three parts of the law -- including the Ten Commandments, statutes and judgments. Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law by his sinless life and set it aside at Calvary when the veil ripped. According to Ephesians 2:13-17, Colossians 2:13-17 and Hebrews 7:18 the law has been abrogated. According to Romans 7:4 believers are dead to the law and the law cannot tell a dead person what to do. According to Romans 8:1-3 the New Covenant law is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death." Believers obey because they are new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Thrash: Here is another thought to chew on. It would have been impossible for Jesus to destroy God’s Word because He is the Word of God (John 1:14) and do away with the Law because He Himself was the Lord God who burnt those laws into a mountainside for Moses to deliver to the Israelites in Exodus chapter twenty.
Kelly: Your logic forces believers to obey all 600+ commandments of the law. Your logic says that NONE of the law has been done away for anybody. Please define the way you use the word "law."
Thrash: God does not have one set of laws for heaven and another set of laws for His earthly kingdom.
Kelly: Do you really think that the Ten Commandments and scrolls of the law have been inside God's Most Holy Place in heaven from eternity past before man was created? Cannot a nation have one covenant with one nation and an entirely different covenant with another nation? God's Old Covenant law was only with national Israel. God treats New Covenant believers under New Covenant provisions --not under Old Covenant provisions.
Thrash: Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” What this means is God’s will is His Law. It’s the law in heaven and it’s the law on earth.
Kelly: This is illogical. God's will for national Israel was the Old Covenant. God's will for the Church is the New Covenant. God did not have to remind himself that it was sin to have any other gods before himself with that same law in heaven.
Thrash: Whether we understand it or whether or not we acknowledge it as being so; God’s will or God’s law is in force throughout His kingdom and governs all of God’s creation.
Kelly: God commanded national Israel NOT to share its covenant with any other nation. How can this be true if he wanted all nations to be under the same covenant law?
Thrash: (deleted long ramble) Matthew 5:20 saying; “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness (speaking to His followers) shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisee, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”(deleted long ramble)
Kelly: You quoted Matthew 5:17-18 and began again at 5:20 plus. Neat. You omitted 5:19 which forces you to obey all 600+ commandments of the law.
Thrash: Be sure to read Part Two in which I continue with this line of thought from Matthew 25 on unselfish giving and the consequences of our refusing to tithe and give gifts to those in need. Dthrash
Kelly: Your "line of thought" has no consistent definition of "law" and is absurd.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Monday, September 14, 2009
MY 912 EXPERIENCE IN DC
The 9-12 Rally of 2009 by Russell Earl Kelly
Two of my three brothers and I made the trip to Washington DC to attend the rally. It was my first trip but they had been there several times before.
My wife dropped me off a hotel in Kennesaw awaiting one brother to get off work at 7 AM. From there we picked up another brother in Woodstock and left his house at 7:30 AM. The satellite mapping said the trip was 666 miles if you like weird things. We spent over an hour getting to I-85 by crossing on Hwy 92 with its heavy traffic. Breakfast on the road was at McDonald's. Lunch was Pizza Hut.
Since one brother had accumulated hotel credits we stayed at the Holiday Inn downtown at 6th and C. We arrived around 8 PM on Friday evening, the 11th. Having driven in an extended truck the parking was a nightmare at the Holiday Inn because of the small spaces.
We ate supper at the buffet at the hotel. It was good food and the $22.95 cost was not as high as I had expected. There was a good selection of food. After supper we took a short walk to the open grass mall and I took 2 photos: one facing the Capital and the other facing the Washington Monument. About 4 blocks of the mall were covered by large white tents with signs for a black family reunion and a large preaching tent.
Saturday morning we were up at 7 AM. The local police had blocked off the McDonald's nearest the hotel because they were "checking it out." I wonder if a bomb scare had been called in to deprive us a place to eat. We were forced to eat breakfast at the hotel ($19.00 plus tip).
Since I had not been to DC before, they accompanied me to the Lincoln Memorial. I had a digital and video camera with me and decided to use mostly the still snap-shots on the way to the Memorial and switch to the other for most of the rally. We began walking from the hotel towards the Lincoln Memorial about 9:30 AM and did not see too many people along the route. We were concerned that the turnout would be small. We did not know that tens of thousands had already lined up that early. We photographed the sights to the Memorial and then headed towards the parade route.
Upon reaching the parade route around 10:45 AM the street was already packed as far as we could see in both directions. The crowd was not moving at that point so we started walking on the sidewalk to find a Georgia group. (We never found them.) About 11 AM, after walking fast for about 15 minutes the crowd began moving and shouting various clean slogans. It was not supposed to begin until 1130 AM. The most amazing thing was the rolling roar which began at the rear of the crowd and rolled forwards. That happened over and over. During the march we passed the White House and I photographed it on a disk which was later lost. I did video tape it and captured two helicopters taking off from the White House lawn at approximately 1110 AM. I was also amazed at how close the Capital buildings are to the airport and train stations which pose such threats.
The signs were all different and fun to read. My favorite has a photo of Martin Luther King and Obama. The sign read "He had a dream; we got a nightmare."
Upon arriving around 1115 AM at the end of the march around a giant pool several blocks from the Capital, it was already wall-to-wall people. We worked our way around the crowd and towards the Capital but never could get close enough to see the persons giving speeches. We heard no profanity and saw no real dissenters. The weather was threatening to rain, overcast and very comfortable with a good breeze. We met and spoke with people from all over. One lady was a moderate Democrat from Vermont. One black man held a sign which said "If you think health is expensive now, wait until it is free."
Around 130 PM we weaved outside of the inner crowd towards the Mall avenue. If you look for us in a crowd, I was wearing a white shirt and Navy hat CV18; one brother was wearing a red shire and Navy hat; another was wearing a red shirt and white hat. All three are white-haired. I am the good-looking one.
We were disappointed that the speakers could not be heard clearly but everybody seemed happy just to be there. The crowd still extended as far as we could see down the avenue of the march for over a mile. By 130 PM all of the side streets were clogged. We were told that thousands could not reach the rally because the underground train stations were completely clogged. I saw a newspaper photo of a packed crowd sitting on the law of one of the monuments over a mile away. What does that tell you about the crowd?
As we were leaving around 2 PM the crowd was still arriving from every angle as far as we could see. We did not see any news coverage other than 2 FOX vans which I photographed. When the crowd marched by the van it shouted "Glenn Beck" over and over.
We ate lunch at the now-opened MacDonald's on 6th street. There was no place to sit and we returned to benches beside the hotel to eat. The weather was still great and cool but I say news coverage which indicated that it must have rained after we left.
We returned via Asheville and Hiawassee and the return trip was much better with no traffic delays. The trip length was almost the same in both directions.
Two of my three brothers and I made the trip to Washington DC to attend the rally. It was my first trip but they had been there several times before.
My wife dropped me off a hotel in Kennesaw awaiting one brother to get off work at 7 AM. From there we picked up another brother in Woodstock and left his house at 7:30 AM. The satellite mapping said the trip was 666 miles if you like weird things. We spent over an hour getting to I-85 by crossing on Hwy 92 with its heavy traffic. Breakfast on the road was at McDonald's. Lunch was Pizza Hut.
Since one brother had accumulated hotel credits we stayed at the Holiday Inn downtown at 6th and C. We arrived around 8 PM on Friday evening, the 11th. Having driven in an extended truck the parking was a nightmare at the Holiday Inn because of the small spaces.
We ate supper at the buffet at the hotel. It was good food and the $22.95 cost was not as high as I had expected. There was a good selection of food. After supper we took a short walk to the open grass mall and I took 2 photos: one facing the Capital and the other facing the Washington Monument. About 4 blocks of the mall were covered by large white tents with signs for a black family reunion and a large preaching tent.
Saturday morning we were up at 7 AM. The local police had blocked off the McDonald's nearest the hotel because they were "checking it out." I wonder if a bomb scare had been called in to deprive us a place to eat. We were forced to eat breakfast at the hotel ($19.00 plus tip).
Since I had not been to DC before, they accompanied me to the Lincoln Memorial. I had a digital and video camera with me and decided to use mostly the still snap-shots on the way to the Memorial and switch to the other for most of the rally. We began walking from the hotel towards the Lincoln Memorial about 9:30 AM and did not see too many people along the route. We were concerned that the turnout would be small. We did not know that tens of thousands had already lined up that early. We photographed the sights to the Memorial and then headed towards the parade route.
Upon reaching the parade route around 10:45 AM the street was already packed as far as we could see in both directions. The crowd was not moving at that point so we started walking on the sidewalk to find a Georgia group. (We never found them.) About 11 AM, after walking fast for about 15 minutes the crowd began moving and shouting various clean slogans. It was not supposed to begin until 1130 AM. The most amazing thing was the rolling roar which began at the rear of the crowd and rolled forwards. That happened over and over. During the march we passed the White House and I photographed it on a disk which was later lost. I did video tape it and captured two helicopters taking off from the White House lawn at approximately 1110 AM. I was also amazed at how close the Capital buildings are to the airport and train stations which pose such threats.
The signs were all different and fun to read. My favorite has a photo of Martin Luther King and Obama. The sign read "He had a dream; we got a nightmare."
Upon arriving around 1115 AM at the end of the march around a giant pool several blocks from the Capital, it was already wall-to-wall people. We worked our way around the crowd and towards the Capital but never could get close enough to see the persons giving speeches. We heard no profanity and saw no real dissenters. The weather was threatening to rain, overcast and very comfortable with a good breeze. We met and spoke with people from all over. One lady was a moderate Democrat from Vermont. One black man held a sign which said "If you think health is expensive now, wait until it is free."
Around 130 PM we weaved outside of the inner crowd towards the Mall avenue. If you look for us in a crowd, I was wearing a white shirt and Navy hat CV18; one brother was wearing a red shire and Navy hat; another was wearing a red shirt and white hat. All three are white-haired. I am the good-looking one.
We were disappointed that the speakers could not be heard clearly but everybody seemed happy just to be there. The crowd still extended as far as we could see down the avenue of the march for over a mile. By 130 PM all of the side streets were clogged. We were told that thousands could not reach the rally because the underground train stations were completely clogged. I saw a newspaper photo of a packed crowd sitting on the law of one of the monuments over a mile away. What does that tell you about the crowd?
As we were leaving around 2 PM the crowd was still arriving from every angle as far as we could see. We did not see any news coverage other than 2 FOX vans which I photographed. When the crowd marched by the van it shouted "Glenn Beck" over and over.
We ate lunch at the now-opened MacDonald's on 6th street. There was no place to sit and we returned to benches beside the hotel to eat. The weather was still great and cool but I say news coverage which indicated that it must have rained after we left.
We returned via Asheville and Hiawassee and the return trip was much better with no traffic delays. The trip length was almost the same in both directions.
Wednesday, September 09, 2009
Reply to Cathy Deaton on Tithing
Reply to Cathy Deaton, Who God Is
http://who-god-is.com/give-god-what-is-rightfully-his
Give God What Is Rightfully His!
Cathy: Many Christians feel that tithing a tenth of their income is optional depending on whether they have extra after all the bills are paid.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Only Old Covenant Israel was commanded to tithe. The New Covenant church is never commanded to tithe after Calvary. Period.
Cathy: According to the Bible, that is not what God intended at all.
Russ: According to Exodus 19:5-6 God intended for every believer to be a priest and priests do not pay tithes to themselves. That has been fulfilled in 1st Peter 2:9-10. OT tithe recipients were not allowed to own or inherit property. The tithing statute of Numbers 18 is not followed by any Church.
Cathy: He wants His Children to put Him first in every aspect of their lives, including giving the tithe money to Him first before any bills have been paid.
Russ: According to 1st Timothy 5:8 the Christian is supposed to spend the first on essentials such as medicine, food and shelter. Firstfruits were never the same as tithes in the Bible according to Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38.
Cathy: God already knows how He is going to provide, but He wants us to trust Him to do it in the way He sees fit. Malachi 3: 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Russ: Tithing was only a very small part of the whole law of over 600 commands. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews while Gentiles and the Church were never under the law.
Cathy: Trust, try and prove God to see what He will do in your life. Make the choice to put Him first in your finances by paying the tithe first thing and then proceed to the other bills. I don’t know how He does it, but when you put Him first He then has the liberty to work on your behalf and truly “open the windows of Heaven” to handle whatever problem arises.
Russ: No matter how many times you repeat the word "first," it still does not make firstfruits and tithes the same thing. Firstfruits were only very small token offerings in the Bible.
Cathy: Make sure you give God what is rightfully His and learn to trust Him no matter what might come your way, knowing He is fully capable of handling it.
Russ: NT giving for the Church after Calvary is: FREEWILL, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and others. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for others.
See my web site at www.tithing-russkelly.com.
http://who-god-is.com/give-god-what-is-rightfully-his
Give God What Is Rightfully His!
Cathy: Many Christians feel that tithing a tenth of their income is optional depending on whether they have extra after all the bills are paid.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Only Old Covenant Israel was commanded to tithe. The New Covenant church is never commanded to tithe after Calvary. Period.
Cathy: According to the Bible, that is not what God intended at all.
Russ: According to Exodus 19:5-6 God intended for every believer to be a priest and priests do not pay tithes to themselves. That has been fulfilled in 1st Peter 2:9-10. OT tithe recipients were not allowed to own or inherit property. The tithing statute of Numbers 18 is not followed by any Church.
Cathy: He wants His Children to put Him first in every aspect of their lives, including giving the tithe money to Him first before any bills have been paid.
Russ: According to 1st Timothy 5:8 the Christian is supposed to spend the first on essentials such as medicine, food and shelter. Firstfruits were never the same as tithes in the Bible according to Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38.
Cathy: God already knows how He is going to provide, but He wants us to trust Him to do it in the way He sees fit. Malachi 3: 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Russ: Tithing was only a very small part of the whole law of over 600 commands. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews while Gentiles and the Church were never under the law.
Cathy: Trust, try and prove God to see what He will do in your life. Make the choice to put Him first in your finances by paying the tithe first thing and then proceed to the other bills. I don’t know how He does it, but when you put Him first He then has the liberty to work on your behalf and truly “open the windows of Heaven” to handle whatever problem arises.
Russ: No matter how many times you repeat the word "first," it still does not make firstfruits and tithes the same thing. Firstfruits were only very small token offerings in the Bible.
Cathy: Make sure you give God what is rightfully His and learn to trust Him no matter what might come your way, knowing He is fully capable of handling it.
Russ: NT giving for the Church after Calvary is: FREEWILL, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and others. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for others.
See my web site at www.tithing-russkelly.com.
Pastor Mike Mutchler: Cup of Coffee; tithing
To Chuck
Russ: Do you ever look at context or is everybody today a WOF preacher?
Chuck: Leviticus 27:30 tells us that the tithe is the Lord's.
Russ: Explain verses 29-29. There are scores of things in Leviticus which are called holy and most holy to the LORD and most Christians say that they are not applicable, but retain tithing. They also ignore the part where Numbers 18 says that tithe-recipients cannot own property too.
Chuck: In the New Testament the principle of tithing is continued in I Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath propspered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." This shows proportionate giving which in view of Biblical precedents throughout Scriptures to mean the tithe.
Russ: Most tithe-teachers say that 1 Cor 16 and 2 Cor 8 and 9 only discuss freewill offerings which are in addition to the tithes until it comes to 1 Cor 16:2. Make up your mind please,
Chuck: The premise of the New Covenant's "freedom" from paying your tithes is wrongly founded.
Russ: There is no foundation for paying tithes in the New Covenant after Calvary for the Church at all. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel and most Christians live outside of Israel. The Old Covenant law-form only applied to national Israel. It was never commanded to the Gentiles or to the Church.
Chuck: There are numerous reflections of Old Testament Law in effect throughout the New Testament. How does one deal with Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?" Is that, too, done away with?
Russ: Was all of English law made null and void when the Declaration of Independence was signed --including the good parts? Yes. Would you like to be judged in the US for breaking German law? God is now working and blessing in accordance with his New Covenant which repeats the eternal moral parts of the law to the Church after Calvary.
Chuck: The decision concerning whether or not to tithe is one of a decision of obedience to God's Word or disobedience.
Russ: Then tithing should be clearly spelled out to the Church by the Holy Spirit in terms of grace after Calvary. A born again Christian who is a new creation has new desires and a Spirit which says "You will not have any other gods before me."
Chuck: "If you love me you will keep my commandments." The tithe as kept as a means of obedience is also a token of our love for the Savior. A decision to be disobedient is to place material wealth above God. And anything placed higher than God is an idol or false god. That goes back to the Law as stated previously "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
I. E. Cup of Coffer with Pastor Mutchler
http://pastorscupofcoffee.blogspot.com/2009/09/tithing.html
Russ: Which commandments? The Law had over 600 of them and John does not use commandments to only refer to the Ten Commandments which do not include tithing. How many of the 600 do you still observe? What principle do you apply when deciding what to bring over from the Old Covenant?
Chuck: Rather than worship mammon and corruptible things of the world that will fall by the wayside, I choose to follow the admonition in Matthew 6:33 to "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness."
Russ: Let all things be done decently and in order. Ask God to give you discernment to see the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Rightly divide the Word.
Russ: Do you ever look at context or is everybody today a WOF preacher?
Chuck: Leviticus 27:30 tells us that the tithe is the Lord's.
Russ: Explain verses 29-29. There are scores of things in Leviticus which are called holy and most holy to the LORD and most Christians say that they are not applicable, but retain tithing. They also ignore the part where Numbers 18 says that tithe-recipients cannot own property too.
Chuck: In the New Testament the principle of tithing is continued in I Corinthians 16:2 "Upon the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath propspered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." This shows proportionate giving which in view of Biblical precedents throughout Scriptures to mean the tithe.
Russ: Most tithe-teachers say that 1 Cor 16 and 2 Cor 8 and 9 only discuss freewill offerings which are in addition to the tithes until it comes to 1 Cor 16:2. Make up your mind please,
Chuck: The premise of the New Covenant's "freedom" from paying your tithes is wrongly founded.
Russ: There is no foundation for paying tithes in the New Covenant after Calvary for the Church at all. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel and most Christians live outside of Israel. The Old Covenant law-form only applied to national Israel. It was never commanded to the Gentiles or to the Church.
Chuck: There are numerous reflections of Old Testament Law in effect throughout the New Testament. How does one deal with Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?" Is that, too, done away with?
Russ: Was all of English law made null and void when the Declaration of Independence was signed --including the good parts? Yes. Would you like to be judged in the US for breaking German law? God is now working and blessing in accordance with his New Covenant which repeats the eternal moral parts of the law to the Church after Calvary.
Chuck: The decision concerning whether or not to tithe is one of a decision of obedience to God's Word or disobedience.
Russ: Then tithing should be clearly spelled out to the Church by the Holy Spirit in terms of grace after Calvary. A born again Christian who is a new creation has new desires and a Spirit which says "You will not have any other gods before me."
Chuck: "If you love me you will keep my commandments." The tithe as kept as a means of obedience is also a token of our love for the Savior. A decision to be disobedient is to place material wealth above God. And anything placed higher than God is an idol or false god. That goes back to the Law as stated previously "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
I. E. Cup of Coffer with Pastor Mutchler
http://pastorscupofcoffee.blogspot.com/2009/09/tithing.html
Russ: Which commandments? The Law had over 600 of them and John does not use commandments to only refer to the Ten Commandments which do not include tithing. How many of the 600 do you still observe? What principle do you apply when deciding what to bring over from the Old Covenant?
Chuck: Rather than worship mammon and corruptible things of the world that will fall by the wayside, I choose to follow the admonition in Matthew 6:33 to "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness."
Russ: Let all things be done decently and in order. Ask God to give you discernment to see the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Rightly divide the Word.
Sunday, September 06, 2009
Rebuttal of WEOF Tom Brown Ministries on Tithing
Rebuttal of Tom Brown Ministries on Tithing
TOM BROWN MINISTRIES
http://www.tbm.org/is_tithing_new_testament.htm
Brown: Tithing began before the law was introduced.
Kelly: The fact that tithing existed before the law proves nothing. Idolatry, child sacrifice and temple prostitution also existed before the law in all lands of Abraham's day, including Canaan. The fact that something is very old and very common does not make it an eternal moral principle.
Brown: The Law simply regulated the tithe.
Kelly: No. The tithe of Abraham and Jacob had its definition from pagan Babylon and was not the same thing as a holy tithe of ONLY FOOD from a holy land miraculously increased by Yahweh and returned to Yahweh. The two definitions are very different.
Brown: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, 400 years before the time of Moses and the Law,
Kelly: Why? The Bible does not say that Abraham did it voluntarily. There is just as much biblical evidence from Genesis 14:21 that he gave in obedience to common Canaanite tradition to his local priest-king, or as a passage tax.
Brown: … and according to Romans 4:12 we are to walk in the footsteps of the faith of Abraham. If tithing was good for him, it should be good for us, too.
Kelly: This stretches the facts. Was it "good" for Abraham to lie about his wife? He was given much wealth because of that lie in Genesis 12. Abraham was NOT enriched because of his tithe in Genesis 14. Only that which Abraham did by faith is an example for Christians and the Bible does not say that he tithed by faith or voluntarily.
Brown: We give tithes like Abraham gave them—not by the Law but by faith.
Kelly: No, we do not give tithes like Abraham. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by you or the Church today. (1) Only pagan spoils of war, (2) not his own property, (3) he kept nothing, (4) he gave the 90% to the king of Sodom (?Satan?). Jacob probably left his tithe for the poor at stone altars.
Brown: And beside that, if the people of God paid ten percent before the Law, and ten percent under the Law, shouldn't we, who live by grace, be doing any less when we have a better covenant (Heb 7:22).
Kelly: This is the greatest lie of tithe-teachers. It builds upon a false assumption to reach an even more false conclusion. It falsely assumes that everybody in the OT was required to begin their level of giving at ten percent of income. In reality only the food producers inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. The vast majority in Israel were pushed off the land within three-four generations because of double-to-the-firstborn inheritance laws. Craftsmen (Jesus), tradesmen (Paul) and fishermen (Peter) had nothing to tithe even if they stayed inside Israel.
Brown: There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8: In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.
Kelly: Why don't tithe-teachers ever go beyond 7:10? Notice that Hebrews 7 does not contain a command to the Church to tithe. It merely uses tithing as a vehicle to demonstrate that Jesus' priesthood is superior to and replaced the Levitical priesthood.
You like the "first occurrence" rule. Try this one. Hebrews 7:5 is the "first occurrence" of the words "commandment," "tithes" and "law" in Hebrews. Verse 5 says that the priests have a "commandment to take tithes according to the law." Verse 12 says that it was "necessary to change the law." What law? --the law of tithing from verse 5! And how was that "law of tithing" from verse 5 "changed"? According to verse 18 the "commandment (of tithing) going before" from verse 5 was "disannulled" because of the better New Covenant in 7:19. How much clearer can something be?
Brown: Some people think this is a new issue. It is as old as the second century when more and more Gentiles were being converted.
Kelly: Wrong. Since tithes were always only food from inside Israel, it was never even considered by Gentiles or Jews outside Israel.
Brown: The early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests. They simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love.
Kelly: Biblically and historically wrong. According to Acts 21:20 the Jewish Christians in Judea were still paying tithes to the Temple system and not the church. History reveals that this Jerusalem church apostatized and became the legalistic Ebionites and Ekiasites who rejected Paul and Gentile Christians in favor of strict law adherence.
Brown: However, as the church became less Jewish this issue came up to the church fathers.
Kelly: Wrong. The very earliest church fathers from the first and second century all dismissed tithing as a purely Jewish custom. See Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian. Around AD 250 Cyprian tried unsuccessfully to teach a type of tithing among extreme ascetics and failed. Even then his tithe was shared equally among all church members.
Brown: They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
Kelly: Wrong. You are inventing your own version of early church history. Church leaders prided themselves for being the poorest of the poor. Extreme asceticism -- being poor was holy to them. The monasteries were built on Jesus' words from Luke 18:22 "sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Check this out in about a dozen of the best seminary textbooks on church history.
Brown: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)."
Kelly: Why did you omit "matters of the law" in your bolded quotation? Appears dishonest. The context of Mt 23:23 is "matters of the law" before Calvary. Jesus was rebuking tithe-teaching scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy. See Mt 23:2-4 for context.
Brown: The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus' word ends the discussion.
Kelly: Not so. The earliest church fathers wholeheartedly rejected tithing as a purely Jewish tradition to support the Temple and the Aaronic priesthood. The earliest fathers emphasized the priesthood of every believer (which do not tithe to themselves). Only after becoming a legal state religion after AD 325 did Chrysostum and Augustine argue UNSUCCESSFULLY for tithing to support the state church. Read your own history books.
Brown: Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!
Kelly: The tithing statute-ordinance is Numbers 18. According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus was a Jew under the jurisdiction of the law and, as such, perfectly obeyed all of the law in order to live a sinless life and redeem those Hebrews who were under the law.
Since you "wholeheartedly agree" that Christians should "not neglect tithing" as Jesus taught in Matthew 23:23, then why do you not obey everything that the law taught about tithing from Matt 23:23 and Numbers 18? (1) tithe garden herbs, (2) only tithe food from inside Israel, (3) only allow preachers inside the sanctuary, (4) kill anybody who dares to worship God as a believer-priest and (5) forfeit property ownership. If you own property, are you not guilty of breaking the same tithing law you profess to defend?
Brown: Some argue that Jesus' words are not applicable to us today, because Jesus was under the Law and spoke to those under the Law. Their theory goes something like this: Jesus was giving an instruction to the Jews so His words are not binding to us.
Kelly: The WOF principle-hermeneutic that "Jesus' word ends the discussion" is woefully inadequate. For example, Jesus commanded those Jews whom he healed to show themselves to the priests, but he did not command the Gentiles whom he healed to do the same thing. Jesus' words must be understood in the context of the covenant involved and to whom he was speaking. Failure to do so causes confusion and error.
Baker: The problem with this interpretation is that these teachers are bringing Christ down to the level of a Jewish prophet or Teacher of the Law.
Kelly: This is a build-up to saying "Do not challenge God's WOF preachers. 2 Tim 2:15 says "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." It is clear that "rightly dividing the word of truth" demands one look at the context, covenant and audience of each word of Scripture. Jesus did not say the same things to both Jews and Gentiles because there were two different covenants involved.
Brown: Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so this means every word that comes out of His mouth is eternal.
Kelly: Gibberish. Every word in the Bible is eternally inscribed, including the erroneous arguments of those who oppose the Gospel. When Jesus said to the woman at the well, "I thirst," it meant that he was thirsty. The WOF turns every word into some magic witchcraft potion of Galatians 3:1.
Brown: He cannot say anything without it being “spiritual law” and everlasting.
Kelly: More WOF nonsense. Does this mean that modern Jews who are healed must show themselves to the Jewish priests at the Jewish Temple? Does this mean that churches must collect tithes of garden herbs? Does this mean that fishermen must only throw their nets over the RIGHT side of the boat? Was there a spiritual law involved when Jesus said that he had no pillow to lay his head? This is WOF gibberish to avoid honest study.
Brown: Jesus emphasizes this point by saying, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matt 24:35).
Kelly: The last I looked, the Bible is still with us today in Greek, Hebrew, English and other translations. The authority is in the context of the words -- not the words themselves.
Brown: These supposed Bible teachers are making the words of Jesus pass away—obsolete and out of date.
Kelly: No, we ask the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom to understand them in the context of the audience, covenant and evident meaning. On the other hand, you have taken the word "tithe" out of context. In 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe, it is never money. And, yes, money was very common even in Genesis and "money" occurs 44 times before "tithe" occurs in Leviticus 27 -- but tithes were never money for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Brown: Besides, these same teachers pick and choose which teachings of Christ in the gospels they believe is applicable to us.
Kelly: What is your hermeneutic? Ours is this: Nothing in the Old Covenant law applies to New Covenant Christians except that which is repeated to the Church AFTER Calvary in terms of the New Covenant." Again, what is your consistent hermeneutic? You are the one who is "picking and choosing."
Brown: I notice that even these teachers agree that most of Christ’ teachings are for us; however, because they are predisposed against tithing, they have had to come up with an excuse for not obeying the clear word of Christ in Mathew 23:23.
Kelly: You speak and write as if the New Covenant began with Matthew 1:1 instead of at Calvary when Jesus died and cried "It is finished." The New Covenant was sealed at Calvary when the blood of the New Covenant was shed. Much of what Jesus taught was in the context of the Old Covenant. That which Jesus spoke for the Church is clearly found AGAIN in the pages of God's Word AFTER Calvary. Again, do not criticize us if you cannot even state your own operational hermeneutic.
Brown: As a believer, you have to show who your Lord is! Is it the teachers who tell you tithing is not New Testament and who tell you that Jesus' word on the subject is out of date; or is it Jesus who clearly told us not to neglect tithing?
Kelly: Is the LORD behind the filthy rich preachers who fleece millions like Paul predicted in Acts 20:29-35 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Over 1000 years before Calvary, David prophesied that the Aaronic priesthood would someday be replaced with a priesthood after the ORDER of a king-priest, Melchizedek in Ps 110:4. Follow the sequence: (1) In Hebrews 7:5 we find the first occurrence of "commandment," "tithes" and "law." Priests are commanded to take tithes according to the law. (2) In 7:12 there is a "necessary change of the law" of tithing from 7:5. What is that change? (3) In 7:18 the "commandment going before" of tithing from 7:5 was "disannulled" because of the better (new) covenant of 7:19. The tithing law was NOT CHANGED to the Church. Rather it was DISANNULLED.
Brown: No modern teacher has the right to tell you to disobey Jesus instruction on tithing. Period!
Kelly: No modern teacher has the right to tell you to obey every single word Jesus taught and ignore the context of the covenant and audience of those words. That is spiritual WOF voodoo.
Brown: Even if the only passages in the New Testament was Jesus word, then that would be sufficient,
Kelly: Really? There is much in your church which is not found in the Gospels.
Brown: however, I want to present other New Testament passages on the subject. Let’s look at Paul’s teaching on giving.
Kelly: The assumption of "other New Testament passages" is false. Again, concerning obedience to the Law, Matthew 23:23 is in the context of pre-Calvary Old Testament teaching addressed primarily to Jews.
Brown: Paul also uses the pattern of tithing under the law in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and says,
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
Paul argues that just as the priests got their food from the tithes of the people, so the preachers should live the same way.
Kelly: The passage quoted is self-defeating. Compare Numbers 18. (1) 1 Cor 9:13 includes ALL forms of sustenance for the Levites and priests ---not merely tithing. (2) The food could only come from inside Israel. (3) The sustenance includes firstborn animals, and firstfruits of all agricultural produces from inside Israel. (4) It includes portions of sin and trespass sacrificial animals. (5) It includes gifts and vow offerings. And (6) it was only given to those who were not allowed to own or inherit property.
If the "even so, just as, in the same way" phrase which begins 9:14 ONLY refers to 9:13, then the Church is being commanded to copy EXACTLY all forms of sustenance included in 9:13 --which is totally absurd.
If the "even so, just as, in the same manner" of 9:14 includes 9:7 to 9:13, then we see a principle being taught. "Each occupation or vocation has its own different forms of sustenance. (1) Soldiers receive war booty. (2) Grape-growers drink the wine. (3) Herdsmen drink the milk. (4) Grinders eat the meal they grind. (5) Temple workers are sustained by law-principles. And (6) gospel workers are sustained by gospel principles of grace and faith. Context, context, context.
Brown: This passage clearly shows the mentality of the apostle and his understanding of carrying over the concept of tithing into the church.
Kelly: Wrong. As a first century rabbi Paul considered it a sin to be paid for teaching the Word of God (see Alfred Edersheim and others). Paul boasted that he was self-supporting in 9:12, 15-19. Paul was not guilty of his own rule in 9:14. Paul urged church elders to follow his example of self-support in Acts 20:29-35. None of this makes sense if Paul commanded gospel workers to be fully supported by tithes.
Brown: The passage often used to contradict this is 2 Corinthians 9:7:
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
The argument goes something like this: "Each believer has a right to decide for himself what to give and should not be told what percentage he should contribute."
Kelly: Too harsh. Each believer who is a new creation in Christ should also have new desires to see souls saved. That means that they will give to the best of their ability, even sacrificially. The equality principle of 2nd Corinthians 8:12-14 means that many should give more (than 10%) but many are giving sacrificially (even though less than 10%).
Brown: The problem with this argument is that the above passage is not dealing with giving to support the church, but rather giving to the poor.
Kelly: There are no New Covenant post-Calvary texts which command that gospel workers must be full time.
Brown: Under the Law, giving to the poor was a freewill offering. The Law commanded freewill offerings as well as tithes:
But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. (Deut 12:5-6)
Kelly: You contradict yourself. Was it a 3rd tithe or was it a freewill offering? Do you teach that tithes should really be 23 1/3rd%? Why not? What gives you the right to only teach one tithe of 10%. The passage discussed BOTH the third tithe AND freewill offerings.
Brown: It is quite inconsistent for people to appeal to freewill offerings yet claim that tithing has been abolished. Both tithing and freewill offerings were incorporated in the Law as the above passage shows, but they preceded the Law, thus they both should be practiced.
Kelly: This is terrible reasoning. The same can be said of multiple marriages, Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, unclean foods and animal sacrifices. You do not have a consistent hermeneutic. The Old Covenant law was only given to national Israel per Exodus 19:5-6; Leviticus 27:34; Malachi 4:4 and many more texts.
Brown: The burden of proof is placed on those who teach that tithing has been abolished. If so, where in the New Testament does it clearly say that tithing has been abolished?
Kelly: ANSWER: From http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id171.html
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
Now that I have produced your "burden of proof" it is only decent for you to reply to each point or recant.
Brown: One last thing, notice the resemblance of the language Paul uses in the first passage in Galatians and compare it with the Old Testament passage about tithing:
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)
And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)
Galatians 6 is dealing with giving to the teacher of the gospel and he uses the same language about the Levites receiving the tithe of the people and he calls it "all good things." This is pretty good internal evidence that the early church tithed to the ministers of the gospel, although, I admit it is not explicit evidence.
Kelly: It is Word of Faith voodoo which totally ignores the context. Paul had previously said in Galatians 3:1-5 that adding works of law back to the gospel is witchcraft. In 3:10 he wrote that one must "continue in all things in the law" in order to be blessed for keeping the law. That means that one cannot expect God to bless under the New Covenant because of obedience to the Old Covenant law of tithing while breaking many of the other 600+ commandments. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey all to be blessed; break one to be cursed. In Galatians 3:19 "the law was added until the seed should come" and "vanished" at Calvary (Heb 8:13). Gal 3:25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Conclusion:
(1) I can provide 16 texts which describe the contents of the biblical tithe as only food from inside Israel. Where are your texts to the contrary?
(2) I can provide many texts which say that the Old Covenant law was only given to national Israel and not the Church or Gentiles. Where are your texts to the contrary?
(3) I can provide Numbers 18 which is the statute of tithing from the law. Why do you not obey anything in this statute? Why do you not give the first whole tithe to your ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc? Why do you not forfeit property ownership? Are you not asking for the tithe under the false pretense that only you are a legitimate New Covenant priest?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
TOM BROWN MINISTRIES
http://www.tbm.org/is_tithing_new_testament.htm
Brown: Tithing began before the law was introduced.
Kelly: The fact that tithing existed before the law proves nothing. Idolatry, child sacrifice and temple prostitution also existed before the law in all lands of Abraham's day, including Canaan. The fact that something is very old and very common does not make it an eternal moral principle.
Brown: The Law simply regulated the tithe.
Kelly: No. The tithe of Abraham and Jacob had its definition from pagan Babylon and was not the same thing as a holy tithe of ONLY FOOD from a holy land miraculously increased by Yahweh and returned to Yahweh. The two definitions are very different.
Brown: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, 400 years before the time of Moses and the Law,
Kelly: Why? The Bible does not say that Abraham did it voluntarily. There is just as much biblical evidence from Genesis 14:21 that he gave in obedience to common Canaanite tradition to his local priest-king, or as a passage tax.
Brown: … and according to Romans 4:12 we are to walk in the footsteps of the faith of Abraham. If tithing was good for him, it should be good for us, too.
Kelly: This stretches the facts. Was it "good" for Abraham to lie about his wife? He was given much wealth because of that lie in Genesis 12. Abraham was NOT enriched because of his tithe in Genesis 14. Only that which Abraham did by faith is an example for Christians and the Bible does not say that he tithed by faith or voluntarily.
Brown: We give tithes like Abraham gave them—not by the Law but by faith.
Kelly: No, we do not give tithes like Abraham. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by you or the Church today. (1) Only pagan spoils of war, (2) not his own property, (3) he kept nothing, (4) he gave the 90% to the king of Sodom (?Satan?). Jacob probably left his tithe for the poor at stone altars.
Brown: And beside that, if the people of God paid ten percent before the Law, and ten percent under the Law, shouldn't we, who live by grace, be doing any less when we have a better covenant (Heb 7:22).
Kelly: This is the greatest lie of tithe-teachers. It builds upon a false assumption to reach an even more false conclusion. It falsely assumes that everybody in the OT was required to begin their level of giving at ten percent of income. In reality only the food producers inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. The vast majority in Israel were pushed off the land within three-four generations because of double-to-the-firstborn inheritance laws. Craftsmen (Jesus), tradesmen (Paul) and fishermen (Peter) had nothing to tithe even if they stayed inside Israel.
Brown: There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8: In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
Melchizedek received Abraham’s tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.
Kelly: Why don't tithe-teachers ever go beyond 7:10? Notice that Hebrews 7 does not contain a command to the Church to tithe. It merely uses tithing as a vehicle to demonstrate that Jesus' priesthood is superior to and replaced the Levitical priesthood.
You like the "first occurrence" rule. Try this one. Hebrews 7:5 is the "first occurrence" of the words "commandment," "tithes" and "law" in Hebrews. Verse 5 says that the priests have a "commandment to take tithes according to the law." Verse 12 says that it was "necessary to change the law." What law? --the law of tithing from verse 5! And how was that "law of tithing" from verse 5 "changed"? According to verse 18 the "commandment (of tithing) going before" from verse 5 was "disannulled" because of the better New Covenant in 7:19. How much clearer can something be?
Brown: Some people think this is a new issue. It is as old as the second century when more and more Gentiles were being converted.
Kelly: Wrong. Since tithes were always only food from inside Israel, it was never even considered by Gentiles or Jews outside Israel.
Brown: The early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests. They simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love.
Kelly: Biblically and historically wrong. According to Acts 21:20 the Jewish Christians in Judea were still paying tithes to the Temple system and not the church. History reveals that this Jerusalem church apostatized and became the legalistic Ebionites and Ekiasites who rejected Paul and Gentile Christians in favor of strict law adherence.
Brown: However, as the church became less Jewish this issue came up to the church fathers.
Kelly: Wrong. The very earliest church fathers from the first and second century all dismissed tithing as a purely Jewish custom. See Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian. Around AD 250 Cyprian tried unsuccessfully to teach a type of tithing among extreme ascetics and failed. Even then his tithe was shared equally among all church members.
Brown: They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
Kelly: Wrong. You are inventing your own version of early church history. Church leaders prided themselves for being the poorest of the poor. Extreme asceticism -- being poor was holy to them. The monasteries were built on Jesus' words from Luke 18:22 "sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Check this out in about a dozen of the best seminary textbooks on church history.
Brown: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)."
Kelly: Why did you omit "matters of the law" in your bolded quotation? Appears dishonest. The context of Mt 23:23 is "matters of the law" before Calvary. Jesus was rebuking tithe-teaching scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy. See Mt 23:2-4 for context.
Brown: The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus' word ends the discussion.
Kelly: Not so. The earliest church fathers wholeheartedly rejected tithing as a purely Jewish tradition to support the Temple and the Aaronic priesthood. The earliest fathers emphasized the priesthood of every believer (which do not tithe to themselves). Only after becoming a legal state religion after AD 325 did Chrysostum and Augustine argue UNSUCCESSFULLY for tithing to support the state church. Read your own history books.
Brown: Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!
Kelly: The tithing statute-ordinance is Numbers 18. According to Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus was a Jew under the jurisdiction of the law and, as such, perfectly obeyed all of the law in order to live a sinless life and redeem those Hebrews who were under the law.
Since you "wholeheartedly agree" that Christians should "not neglect tithing" as Jesus taught in Matthew 23:23, then why do you not obey everything that the law taught about tithing from Matt 23:23 and Numbers 18? (1) tithe garden herbs, (2) only tithe food from inside Israel, (3) only allow preachers inside the sanctuary, (4) kill anybody who dares to worship God as a believer-priest and (5) forfeit property ownership. If you own property, are you not guilty of breaking the same tithing law you profess to defend?
Brown: Some argue that Jesus' words are not applicable to us today, because Jesus was under the Law and spoke to those under the Law. Their theory goes something like this: Jesus was giving an instruction to the Jews so His words are not binding to us.
Kelly: The WOF principle-hermeneutic that "Jesus' word ends the discussion" is woefully inadequate. For example, Jesus commanded those Jews whom he healed to show themselves to the priests, but he did not command the Gentiles whom he healed to do the same thing. Jesus' words must be understood in the context of the covenant involved and to whom he was speaking. Failure to do so causes confusion and error.
Baker: The problem with this interpretation is that these teachers are bringing Christ down to the level of a Jewish prophet or Teacher of the Law.
Kelly: This is a build-up to saying "Do not challenge God's WOF preachers. 2 Tim 2:15 says "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." It is clear that "rightly dividing the word of truth" demands one look at the context, covenant and audience of each word of Scripture. Jesus did not say the same things to both Jews and Gentiles because there were two different covenants involved.
Brown: Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so this means every word that comes out of His mouth is eternal.
Kelly: Gibberish. Every word in the Bible is eternally inscribed, including the erroneous arguments of those who oppose the Gospel. When Jesus said to the woman at the well, "I thirst," it meant that he was thirsty. The WOF turns every word into some magic witchcraft potion of Galatians 3:1.
Brown: He cannot say anything without it being “spiritual law” and everlasting.
Kelly: More WOF nonsense. Does this mean that modern Jews who are healed must show themselves to the Jewish priests at the Jewish Temple? Does this mean that churches must collect tithes of garden herbs? Does this mean that fishermen must only throw their nets over the RIGHT side of the boat? Was there a spiritual law involved when Jesus said that he had no pillow to lay his head? This is WOF gibberish to avoid honest study.
Brown: Jesus emphasizes this point by saying, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matt 24:35).
Kelly: The last I looked, the Bible is still with us today in Greek, Hebrew, English and other translations. The authority is in the context of the words -- not the words themselves.
Brown: These supposed Bible teachers are making the words of Jesus pass away—obsolete and out of date.
Kelly: No, we ask the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom to understand them in the context of the audience, covenant and evident meaning. On the other hand, you have taken the word "tithe" out of context. In 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe, it is never money. And, yes, money was very common even in Genesis and "money" occurs 44 times before "tithe" occurs in Leviticus 27 -- but tithes were never money for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Brown: Besides, these same teachers pick and choose which teachings of Christ in the gospels they believe is applicable to us.
Kelly: What is your hermeneutic? Ours is this: Nothing in the Old Covenant law applies to New Covenant Christians except that which is repeated to the Church AFTER Calvary in terms of the New Covenant." Again, what is your consistent hermeneutic? You are the one who is "picking and choosing."
Brown: I notice that even these teachers agree that most of Christ’ teachings are for us; however, because they are predisposed against tithing, they have had to come up with an excuse for not obeying the clear word of Christ in Mathew 23:23.
Kelly: You speak and write as if the New Covenant began with Matthew 1:1 instead of at Calvary when Jesus died and cried "It is finished." The New Covenant was sealed at Calvary when the blood of the New Covenant was shed. Much of what Jesus taught was in the context of the Old Covenant. That which Jesus spoke for the Church is clearly found AGAIN in the pages of God's Word AFTER Calvary. Again, do not criticize us if you cannot even state your own operational hermeneutic.
Brown: As a believer, you have to show who your Lord is! Is it the teachers who tell you tithing is not New Testament and who tell you that Jesus' word on the subject is out of date; or is it Jesus who clearly told us not to neglect tithing?
Kelly: Is the LORD behind the filthy rich preachers who fleece millions like Paul predicted in Acts 20:29-35 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Over 1000 years before Calvary, David prophesied that the Aaronic priesthood would someday be replaced with a priesthood after the ORDER of a king-priest, Melchizedek in Ps 110:4. Follow the sequence: (1) In Hebrews 7:5 we find the first occurrence of "commandment," "tithes" and "law." Priests are commanded to take tithes according to the law. (2) In 7:12 there is a "necessary change of the law" of tithing from 7:5. What is that change? (3) In 7:18 the "commandment going before" of tithing from 7:5 was "disannulled" because of the better (new) covenant of 7:19. The tithing law was NOT CHANGED to the Church. Rather it was DISANNULLED.
Brown: No modern teacher has the right to tell you to disobey Jesus instruction on tithing. Period!
Kelly: No modern teacher has the right to tell you to obey every single word Jesus taught and ignore the context of the covenant and audience of those words. That is spiritual WOF voodoo.
Brown: Even if the only passages in the New Testament was Jesus word, then that would be sufficient,
Kelly: Really? There is much in your church which is not found in the Gospels.
Brown: however, I want to present other New Testament passages on the subject. Let’s look at Paul’s teaching on giving.
Kelly: The assumption of "other New Testament passages" is false. Again, concerning obedience to the Law, Matthew 23:23 is in the context of pre-Calvary Old Testament teaching addressed primarily to Jews.
Brown: Paul also uses the pattern of tithing under the law in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and says,
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
Paul argues that just as the priests got their food from the tithes of the people, so the preachers should live the same way.
Kelly: The passage quoted is self-defeating. Compare Numbers 18. (1) 1 Cor 9:13 includes ALL forms of sustenance for the Levites and priests ---not merely tithing. (2) The food could only come from inside Israel. (3) The sustenance includes firstborn animals, and firstfruits of all agricultural produces from inside Israel. (4) It includes portions of sin and trespass sacrificial animals. (5) It includes gifts and vow offerings. And (6) it was only given to those who were not allowed to own or inherit property.
If the "even so, just as, in the same way" phrase which begins 9:14 ONLY refers to 9:13, then the Church is being commanded to copy EXACTLY all forms of sustenance included in 9:13 --which is totally absurd.
If the "even so, just as, in the same manner" of 9:14 includes 9:7 to 9:13, then we see a principle being taught. "Each occupation or vocation has its own different forms of sustenance. (1) Soldiers receive war booty. (2) Grape-growers drink the wine. (3) Herdsmen drink the milk. (4) Grinders eat the meal they grind. (5) Temple workers are sustained by law-principles. And (6) gospel workers are sustained by gospel principles of grace and faith. Context, context, context.
Brown: This passage clearly shows the mentality of the apostle and his understanding of carrying over the concept of tithing into the church.
Kelly: Wrong. As a first century rabbi Paul considered it a sin to be paid for teaching the Word of God (see Alfred Edersheim and others). Paul boasted that he was self-supporting in 9:12, 15-19. Paul was not guilty of his own rule in 9:14. Paul urged church elders to follow his example of self-support in Acts 20:29-35. None of this makes sense if Paul commanded gospel workers to be fully supported by tithes.
Brown: The passage often used to contradict this is 2 Corinthians 9:7:
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
The argument goes something like this: "Each believer has a right to decide for himself what to give and should not be told what percentage he should contribute."
Kelly: Too harsh. Each believer who is a new creation in Christ should also have new desires to see souls saved. That means that they will give to the best of their ability, even sacrificially. The equality principle of 2nd Corinthians 8:12-14 means that many should give more (than 10%) but many are giving sacrificially (even though less than 10%).
Brown: The problem with this argument is that the above passage is not dealing with giving to support the church, but rather giving to the poor.
Kelly: There are no New Covenant post-Calvary texts which command that gospel workers must be full time.
Brown: Under the Law, giving to the poor was a freewill offering. The Law commanded freewill offerings as well as tithes:
But you are to seek the place the LORD your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. (Deut 12:5-6)
Kelly: You contradict yourself. Was it a 3rd tithe or was it a freewill offering? Do you teach that tithes should really be 23 1/3rd%? Why not? What gives you the right to only teach one tithe of 10%. The passage discussed BOTH the third tithe AND freewill offerings.
Brown: It is quite inconsistent for people to appeal to freewill offerings yet claim that tithing has been abolished. Both tithing and freewill offerings were incorporated in the Law as the above passage shows, but they preceded the Law, thus they both should be practiced.
Kelly: This is terrible reasoning. The same can be said of multiple marriages, Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, unclean foods and animal sacrifices. You do not have a consistent hermeneutic. The Old Covenant law was only given to national Israel per Exodus 19:5-6; Leviticus 27:34; Malachi 4:4 and many more texts.
Brown: The burden of proof is placed on those who teach that tithing has been abolished. If so, where in the New Testament does it clearly say that tithing has been abolished?
Kelly: ANSWER: From http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id171.html
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
Now that I have produced your "burden of proof" it is only decent for you to reply to each point or recant.
Brown: One last thing, notice the resemblance of the language Paul uses in the first passage in Galatians and compare it with the Old Testament passage about tithing:
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. (Gal 6:6)
And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. (Deut 26:11-12)
Galatians 6 is dealing with giving to the teacher of the gospel and he uses the same language about the Levites receiving the tithe of the people and he calls it "all good things." This is pretty good internal evidence that the early church tithed to the ministers of the gospel, although, I admit it is not explicit evidence.
Kelly: It is Word of Faith voodoo which totally ignores the context. Paul had previously said in Galatians 3:1-5 that adding works of law back to the gospel is witchcraft. In 3:10 he wrote that one must "continue in all things in the law" in order to be blessed for keeping the law. That means that one cannot expect God to bless under the New Covenant because of obedience to the Old Covenant law of tithing while breaking many of the other 600+ commandments. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey all to be blessed; break one to be cursed. In Galatians 3:19 "the law was added until the seed should come" and "vanished" at Calvary (Heb 8:13). Gal 3:25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Conclusion:
(1) I can provide 16 texts which describe the contents of the biblical tithe as only food from inside Israel. Where are your texts to the contrary?
(2) I can provide many texts which say that the Old Covenant law was only given to national Israel and not the Church or Gentiles. Where are your texts to the contrary?
(3) I can provide Numbers 18 which is the statute of tithing from the law. Why do you not obey anything in this statute? Why do you not give the first whole tithe to your ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc? Why do you not forfeit property ownership? Are you not asking for the tithe under the false pretense that only you are a legitimate New Covenant priest?
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Friday, September 04, 2009
Reply to When Everything on Tithing
Rebuttal to When Everything on Tithing
Tithing - Beginning your surge of magical involvements , Sept 1, 2009
http://kevtz.info/tithing-beginning-your-surge-of-magical-involvements/
greatly edited
When: The origins of tithing can be traced to the Bible, still it is customary among many non-Christians as well as Christians to do some kind of tithing today.
Kelly: False. As you say later, tithing was used in all countries known to Abraham, including his birthplace in Babylon. They were also idolaters and sacrificed children. Being old and common does not make something moral or eternal.
When: Tithe is a traditionally a Christian term that means to contribute one tenth of your income to charity or to your Church as a form of Church giving.
Kelly: Biblical tithing was always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis, money is not included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
When: The word tithe derives from the Hebrew word ‘asair’, which means to donate one-tenth portion of something, mostly a person’s earnings.
Kelly: False. The word is accompanied: tithe --of food from inside Israel. Never money.
When: The Hebrew habit of tithing is recorded in the Bible, the first mention being the gift from Abraham to the Canaanite priest and king Melchizedek (Genesis 14:20).
Kelly: Nothing done by Abraham is an example which is followed by Christians today. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not his own property, (4) he kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
When: Tithing was implemented by the early Christian church, and had found mention in councils at Macon in 585 and at Tours in 567. They were granted formal recognition during the time of Pope Adrian I in 787.
Kelly: The real EARLY church for almost 300 years after Calvary did not teach tithing. The attempts by Chrysostum and Augustine were not accepted. The 585 council was local; it was not accepted; it did not become law until 200 years later as Roman Catholic law.
When: In fact, it was obligatory only on those Jews who were living in the Promised Land to pay the tithe according to the Old Testament, as it was in reality a form of income tax required to support not just the government of the Israel of the Old Testament, but also its religious institutions and priests.
Kelly: Very good.
When: Present day Tithing. Despite the fact that it has originated in the Bible and earliest Christianity, now it is a unique way to gift something whenever you are given something.
Kelly: ??? You contradict yourself.
When: In spirit though, if the giving is not done out of free will and with a happy intention, it does not accomplish its proper benefit - if in fact you want to create a proper benefit by the gift.
Kelly: Good.
When: ... In spite of the disputes, tithing is still a fully and marvelously powerful act that any person can do to turn around their lives to face a fuller pathway.
Kelly: Wrong. Freewill giving -- possibly. Calling such freewill giving "tithing" -- no. Your statement is totally unjustified.
When: For those who are desirous of understanding the Christian perspective of tithing there is unlimited material available to read.
Kelly: Hardly any by legitimate upper seminary level authors. And you have already correctly disproven most of their arguments. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
When: To look at the real ‘why’ of how regular giving creates more we have to move into the world of Quantum Physics and Quantum Mechanics.
Kelly: This is insane. Throw the Bible out. Call freewill giving "tithing" and apply it to sinners and saints the same. Insane.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Tithing - Beginning your surge of magical involvements , Sept 1, 2009
http://kevtz.info/tithing-beginning-your-surge-of-magical-involvements/
greatly edited
When: The origins of tithing can be traced to the Bible, still it is customary among many non-Christians as well as Christians to do some kind of tithing today.
Kelly: False. As you say later, tithing was used in all countries known to Abraham, including his birthplace in Babylon. They were also idolaters and sacrificed children. Being old and common does not make something moral or eternal.
When: Tithe is a traditionally a Christian term that means to contribute one tenth of your income to charity or to your Church as a form of Church giving.
Kelly: Biblical tithing was always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis, money is not included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
When: The word tithe derives from the Hebrew word ‘asair’, which means to donate one-tenth portion of something, mostly a person’s earnings.
Kelly: False. The word is accompanied: tithe --of food from inside Israel. Never money.
When: The Hebrew habit of tithing is recorded in the Bible, the first mention being the gift from Abraham to the Canaanite priest and king Melchizedek (Genesis 14:20).
Kelly: Nothing done by Abraham is an example which is followed by Christians today. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not his own property, (4) he kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
When: Tithing was implemented by the early Christian church, and had found mention in councils at Macon in 585 and at Tours in 567. They were granted formal recognition during the time of Pope Adrian I in 787.
Kelly: The real EARLY church for almost 300 years after Calvary did not teach tithing. The attempts by Chrysostum and Augustine were not accepted. The 585 council was local; it was not accepted; it did not become law until 200 years later as Roman Catholic law.
When: In fact, it was obligatory only on those Jews who were living in the Promised Land to pay the tithe according to the Old Testament, as it was in reality a form of income tax required to support not just the government of the Israel of the Old Testament, but also its religious institutions and priests.
Kelly: Very good.
When: Present day Tithing. Despite the fact that it has originated in the Bible and earliest Christianity, now it is a unique way to gift something whenever you are given something.
Kelly: ??? You contradict yourself.
When: In spirit though, if the giving is not done out of free will and with a happy intention, it does not accomplish its proper benefit - if in fact you want to create a proper benefit by the gift.
Kelly: Good.
When: ... In spite of the disputes, tithing is still a fully and marvelously powerful act that any person can do to turn around their lives to face a fuller pathway.
Kelly: Wrong. Freewill giving -- possibly. Calling such freewill giving "tithing" -- no. Your statement is totally unjustified.
When: For those who are desirous of understanding the Christian perspective of tithing there is unlimited material available to read.
Kelly: Hardly any by legitimate upper seminary level authors. And you have already correctly disproven most of their arguments. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
When: To look at the real ‘why’ of how regular giving creates more we have to move into the world of Quantum Physics and Quantum Mechanics.
Kelly: This is insane. Throw the Bible out. Call freewill giving "tithing" and apply it to sinners and saints the same. Insane.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
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