Reply to COG Perspective 3 on Tithing
Tithing, Part 3: Who Receives 1st Tithe?
http://cogperspective.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithing-part-3-who-receives-1st-tithe.html
Per: The first tithe is the one that was holy and dedicated to God.
Kelly: The pagan spoils of war tithes paid by Abraham and Jacob do not qualify as holy tithes of the law.
Per: God then gave this tithe to the Levites because they had no land inheritance.
Kelly: According to Numbers 3 and 18 and 1st Chronicles 23 to 26 the Levites did everything but offer sin and trespass offerings. The modern Levites would correspond to our ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, treasurers and politicians. Why are these not given the first tithe today? And why are modern tithe-recipients not forced to forfeit property ownership?
Per: A subset of the Levites was the Aaronic priesthood, and the Levites further tithed to the priests.
Kelly: The priests only got a tenth of the tenth, or one per cent. How many churches limit the ministerial staff salary to 1% of the total tithe?
Per: This helped to feed and clothe the Levites and priests so they could be free to perform the functions of the tabernacle and, later, the temple.
Kelly: These served in the Temple one week out of 24. The remainder of the time they stayed in their Levitical cities and worked as farmers and herdsmen to care for the tithed animals or learned and worked trades necessary for Temple maintenance.
Per: It was holy to God. It was to be used to carry out His work.
Kelly: 90% of it was used for non-priestly functions. None of it was used for missionary work to convert the Gentiles.
Per: So, what does this mean for us today? First of all, there are no Levites working in a tabernacle or temple and no Aaronic priesthood. Second, there is no temple. Thirdly, what is God’s work today that we are supporting? Until these questions are answered, it is impossible to know for sure that we are tithing in a manner consistent with God’s desires.
Kelly: They mean absolutely nothing for the New Covenant Church which was never under the Old Covenant given only to national Israel per Heb 8:8-13.
Per: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? Heb 7:11
Kelly: The "law" of tithing from 7:11 must refer to 7:5 which stated that the priests had a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law. That is the context of law.
Per: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 7:12
Kelly: Again the context of "law" in Hebrews 7 absolutely must go back to 7:5 where the words "commandment," "tithes" and "law" fist appear in Hebrews.
Per: For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 7:13-14
Kelly: These texts prove that law of tithing must be changed since it only applied to the tribe of Levi.
Per: In this section the author, whom I believe to be Paul, tells us the priesthood has changed. It is no longer after the order of Aaron.
Kelly: Agreed. But how was it changed?
Per: Quotes Hebrews 7:1-6.
So, even as Aaron was high priest, Jesus Christ is now our high priest.
However, the priesthood consists of more than one man. Aaron had help, and Jesus Christ today works through His Church.
Quotes Hebrews 10:21-25 and 13:7.
You will find the priesthood, then, in God’s Church. God’s Church is the spiritual temple.
Kelly: Yes, but the priesthood is not the elders and bishops. It consists of every single believer who does not tithe to self. Compare Ex 19:5-6 with 1 Pet 2:9-10.
Per: So, where is the temple on earth? It is the Church!
Kelly: The church assembly of the body of Christ --not the church building.
Per: 1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:15-16; 12:12-14 (cf. Jn 2:19-21)
Kelly: Like I said in my last statement.
Per: So, where is God’s Church? It is made up of His people. His people are the ones who keep His commandments (1Jn 2:3-4; Rev 12:17; 14:12).
Kelly: These are favorite SDA texts to prove that they are the only true church because they are the only ones keeping all of the Ten Commandments. John did not use the word "commandments" to mean the Ten Commandments.
Per: If God’s temple was where God’s work was being carried out in the OT, then we must look to see where His work is being done now. What is His work?
Kelly: I smell a skunk coming. You are going to change the definition of church to a building.
Per: Quotes Mt 28:19-20; Mt 24:14
Notice that God’s Church will be:
1. Keeping His commandments, even that 4th one!
Kelly: Aha. You are a cultic offshoot of the COG. See Exposingseventhdayadventism.com
Per: OT Example of Giving to a Non-Levite. Notice that Elisha was a man of God. He was not a Levite.
Kelly: Elisha did not receive tithes.
Per: 2Ki 4:38, 42-44
A man came to Elisha and gave him of the firstfruits, something usually only given to Levites in the tabernacle/temple.
Kelly: The text does not say that he gave him "the" firstfruits. He merely says he gave him from the first of his harvest. There is a lot of "first" when the firstfruit was a very small token offering per Deu 26:1-4.
Per: God’s Church is where His work is being done. That identifies where your first tithe should go.
Kelly: No texts whatsoever.
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Open Letter to Glenn Beck on Mormonism
Glenn Beck
When you speak about your religion and praying to the Lord, I mentally turn you off because of your Mormonism. If you spent the same degree of researching Mormonism as you do researching liberal deceit, you would reject it. I listen to you for 3 hours in the morning and watch you every day.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
When you speak about your religion and praying to the Lord, I mentally turn you off because of your Mormonism. If you spent the same degree of researching Mormonism as you do researching liberal deceit, you would reject it. I listen to you for 3 hours in the morning and watch you every day.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
Reply to COG Perspective 2
CHURCH OF GOD PERSPECITVE
http://cogperspective.blogspot.com/2009/08/my-response-to-russell-earl-kelly.html
My Response to Russell Earl Kelly
>> Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Russell Earl Kelly wrote:
Kelly: Can you picture a lawyer in the USA arguing a case using even the good points of English law? Why is that obviously wrong, yet it is OK to argue using Old Covenant law? Well, God does not and cannot bless a New Covenant Christian because of obedience to annulled Old Covenant commandments per Heb 7:5, 12, 18?
Per: Actually, for your information, the US has recently began to use EU law as precedents for certain types of cases. However, even ignoring that, the analogy is still flawed. The US broke away from England. They had a revolution. The government of God still has the same King in place, the same government in place. The revolution was led by the Adversary (or Accuser), and it was a failed rebellion at that.
Kelly: The US government has treaties with hundreds of countries. It treats each of those nations in accordance with the treaty it has with them. It does not treat them all the same.
God made a treaty-covenant with OT national Israel. He did not make that treaty-covenant with any other nation (Ex 19:5-6). In fact he commanded Israel not to make treaties with other nations.
God then made a completely "new" covenant with Israel with would include the other nations. This is called the New Covenant and everything changed in Matthew 20-:19-20. The new covenant was really new. It was not the old covenant reworked.
Per: OK, so you are saying that a Christian cannot be blessed by keeping the commandments? Does that mean that there is no blessing for not committing murder? No blessing for being faithful to one's wife? That's all part of the Old Covenant, you see.
Kelly: Your first mistake here is to limit what I said to the Ten Commandments when no Hebrew and the Bible does not do that. Again, God deals with New Covenant believers under the terms of the New Covenant because the Old Covenant has "vanished" per Heb 8:13. How can He deal with us according to a vanished covenant?
The New Covenant "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is the law of love per Romans 8:2. The New Covenant believer is blessed because he yields to the Holy Spirit within and obeys its guidance for the body of Christ. The old "Thou shalt nots" have been replaced by the new "I will not" because I am a new creation in Jesus Christ. There is a great difference between the old and the new covenant approaches.
Per: It's interesting that a lot of Protestants want to keep the portions of the Law that do not mean giving up time (the Sabbath) or money (tithing). When those subjects come up, they yell, "The Law was done away!"
Kelly: Your own church follows dispensational hermeneutics when discussing eschatology. That means it admits that OT promises to national Israel are not the same as those for the church. However, you ignore those same dispensational hermeneutics when it comes to the law. When you say "The Law was NOT done away," you really "do away" with 99% of the law and only keep that which is convenient. Shame on you.
Per: It is a flawed argument. Why would God go to the trouble of sending His Son to die for our sins, transgressions against God's Law, only to free us so we can commit more sins?
Kelly: This is a paper tiger --a straw horse. Nobody argues this way. Do you obey God's law and kill disobedient children, Sabbath breakers and adulterors? Do you eat pork and lobster? Do you wear mixed-fabric clothing? Jesus freed us because we DIED to law as a principle which guides our lives per Romans 7:4. Jesus freed us so that we can serve in newness of life as new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to John 16:8-9 Jesus is the new standard of judgment, not the law.
Per: That would be like the person hauled into court and forgiven of his crime running out to commit the same crime again, would it not?
Kelly: No. The OT person was not let out. The OT believer DIED in Christ and was RESURRECTED with a NEW NATURE. His/her desire has changed by that miracle. He/she no longer wants to disobey God.
Per: Have you not read the article "Have Christians As a Whole Left Behind the Teachings of Christ?"? Or, how about "The Ten Commandments"?
Kelly: Your error here is to use the word "law" to mean the Ten Commandments. Read Romans 3:1-20 and tell me how many of the Ten Commandments have been quoted.
Per: You reference a Scripture that says a law was anulled, but you don't quote it. Let's look at it, shall we?
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
~ Heb 7:18
Now, you yourself state "The first rule of understanding the Bible is the context of the text being quoted." So, what is the context of Heb 7:18? What law was "disanulled" or "set aside" (NIV)? The "former law" he was talking about was:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
~ vv 12-13
It was the law that the priesthood came from the line of Aaron. It was weak and profitless because it was a priesthood of men. God setup a more perfect priesthood throught the High Priest Jesus Christ, Who is immortal.
Kelly: Wrong. The FIRST USE of the words "law," "tithes" and "commandment" in Hebrews is found in 7:5 Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:KJV
The law which must be changed according to 7:12 was the law of tithing from the context of 7:5. The commandment which was annulled in 7:18 was the commandment of tithing from 7:5.
Per: You further wrote: Matthew 23:23 is a discussion of "matters of the law" and is addressed to the first century interpreters of the law who turned tithing into a burden by adding household garden herbs.From Leviticus to Luke (16 texts) the true biblical tithe only meant food from inside Israel. God defined it that way!"
I suggest you go back and reread part one. Not only did God make provisions to turn it into money, but Abraham and Jacob tithed on all.
Kelly: God made provisions to turn the tithe into money only because the tithe was only food. This was a very temporary provision because the money was turned back into food. And Abraham and Jacob's tithes were not the same has holy tithes from a holy God's land. Admit it. Their source was pagan and would not have been accepted as legitimate tithes into the Temple.
Kelly: "Pagan tithing was in place in all Abraham's known world alongside idolatry, child sacrifices and temple prostitution. Being very old and very common does not make something an eternal moral principle.
Read Numbers 31 which is a discussion of the statute of the law concerning tithes from spoils of war. It is only one per cent. Abraham and Jacob's tithes from pagan Haran of Syria were not considered to be holy tithes in the law. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any church today."
Per: Wait a minute! So, now tithing is pagan? Explain this one, please. In what manner are the examples of Abraham and Jacob not followed today and why?
Kelly: Do not take my word for it. Read article which follows my essay on page one. Also go to any public library and research the origins of tithing. Also look up the word "tithing" in the Encyclopedia Britannica and American and any other major encyclopedia. They all show that tithing originated as a pagan custom. Concerning Abraham, please tell me what he actually DID which is followed by you and the church today. (1) Only pagan spoils of war, (2) Only once recorded, (3) nothing of his own personal property, (4) kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Per: I notice that Numbers 31 calls it a "tribute" and not a "tithe". It appears to be a special case, and it does not say that it was an ordinance to be carried out every time. Notice how the NASB calls it a "tax". It seems similar to the "ransom" (NASB) in Numbers 3 in that it appears to be a one-time deal. However, the tithe commands all say "when", which show they were laws and not one-time commands. Your citing of Numbers 31 is a weak argument, in my estimation.
Kelly: Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Kelly: 1 Cor 9:12-19 shows that Paul refused to exercise his right to be paid (even partially) and preferred to work for free.
Per: Yet, by your own admission, it was his "right". That money would have come from the Church, and it would be paid from members' tithing.
Kelly: That does not prove that Paul was teaching tithing. He had a right because he was serving them and was poor. The soldier's wage (opsonion) Paul occasionally received was a daily supply.
Kelly: Most assume that everybody in the OT was required to begin his/her level of giving at ten per cent. That is a false assumption because only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify.
Please stop teaching Old Covenant tithing to New Covenant believers. That which God wanted His Church to obey he repeated and restated to it after Calvary in terms of grace and faith. And tithes were not repeated. Neither do we have Levites and superior priests who must forfeit inheritance rights.
Per: You utilize an argument similar to the atheist who asks why God won't appear to him or her. They seem to have the expectation that God must appear in each and every generation to revalidate Himself. Why should God have to repeat the entire Law in order for you to follow it?
Kelly: You have no consistent hermeneutic. It is a "pick and choose" as you so desire. You discard the vast majority of the Old Covenant law and keep one or two parts of it you like. Please tell me what guideline you use to make these decisions.
Per: Furthermore, why should I stop teaching what is still shown to be valid in the NT?
Kelly: Where is tithing shown to the Church after Calvary?
Per: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
~ Ro 7:12
Kelly: Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.KJV
Per:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:~ Heb 8:9-10
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
~ v 13
Kelly: Are you now agreeing with me? The Old Covenant has indeed VANISHED.
Per: What was the New Covenant based on? What was different other than writing the laws on the hearts and minds? Why would the Old Covenant vanish away? Again, Hebrews tells us the answer.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.~ Heb 8:6
Kelly: Amen. Hallelujah. You agree with me.
Per: The New Covenant has better, longer lasting promises. We are given God's Holy Spirit, something not generally available to ancient Israel. We have the promise of eternal life, while ancient Israel had promises of national greatness.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
...For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:~ Ro 7:14, 22
Kelly: Does that mean all 600+ commandments, judgments and ordinances of the law? Explain yourself.
Per: Yes, the Old Covenant was done away with because it had physical promises. It could not forgive sins, and it could not grant eternal life. Yet, the Law, the core of the Covenant, was basically unchanged, except for the portions fulfilled through Christ's sacrifice and the granting of the Holy Spirit.
Kelly: The Law was not the "core of the covenant." The Law WAS the covenant.
Per: We have explicit Bible verses that spell those changes out, most of which have to do with the sacrificial system.
Kelly: You are telling me that the Church of God uses dispensational hermeneutics for prophecy and then uses covenantal theology hermeneutics for the Old Covenant law. I reject that. The entire Old Covenant vanished per Hebrews 8:13 --not just parts of it. Read the text again and again and again.
Per: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
~ Mt 5:18
Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still standing. Last time I checked, all had not been fulfilled, as Christ's Kingdom has not been established on earth.
Kelly: Last time I checked the Church of God has still stopped obeying 99% of what is contained in the Old Covenant law. That makes you guilty of Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." In Matt5:20-48 Jesus quoted the commandments, statutes and judgemtns to illustrate his point. Yes, yes, yes, Jesus totally fulfilled all of the righteous requirements of the Law as pointed out in Matthew many times. I am sorry that you do not understand that.
Per:Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.~ Ro 3:31
Kelly: From Romans 1:1 to 3:31 he has quoted from Psalms and Isaiah and used the word "law" to mean "God's revelation of His righteous requirements." In acknowledging our sinfulness because the law has condemned us and driven us to salvation by grace through faith alone, the law has fulfilled its purpose.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: KJV
Per: What then? shall we sin [transgress the law, 1Jn 3:4], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
~ 6:15
Kelly: Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
http://cogperspective.blogspot.com/2009/08/my-response-to-russell-earl-kelly.html
My Response to Russell Earl Kelly
>> Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Russell Earl Kelly wrote:
Kelly: Can you picture a lawyer in the USA arguing a case using even the good points of English law? Why is that obviously wrong, yet it is OK to argue using Old Covenant law? Well, God does not and cannot bless a New Covenant Christian because of obedience to annulled Old Covenant commandments per Heb 7:5, 12, 18?
Per: Actually, for your information, the US has recently began to use EU law as precedents for certain types of cases. However, even ignoring that, the analogy is still flawed. The US broke away from England. They had a revolution. The government of God still has the same King in place, the same government in place. The revolution was led by the Adversary (or Accuser), and it was a failed rebellion at that.
Kelly: The US government has treaties with hundreds of countries. It treats each of those nations in accordance with the treaty it has with them. It does not treat them all the same.
God made a treaty-covenant with OT national Israel. He did not make that treaty-covenant with any other nation (Ex 19:5-6). In fact he commanded Israel not to make treaties with other nations.
God then made a completely "new" covenant with Israel with would include the other nations. This is called the New Covenant and everything changed in Matthew 20-:19-20. The new covenant was really new. It was not the old covenant reworked.
Per: OK, so you are saying that a Christian cannot be blessed by keeping the commandments? Does that mean that there is no blessing for not committing murder? No blessing for being faithful to one's wife? That's all part of the Old Covenant, you see.
Kelly: Your first mistake here is to limit what I said to the Ten Commandments when no Hebrew and the Bible does not do that. Again, God deals with New Covenant believers under the terms of the New Covenant because the Old Covenant has "vanished" per Heb 8:13. How can He deal with us according to a vanished covenant?
The New Covenant "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is the law of love per Romans 8:2. The New Covenant believer is blessed because he yields to the Holy Spirit within and obeys its guidance for the body of Christ. The old "Thou shalt nots" have been replaced by the new "I will not" because I am a new creation in Jesus Christ. There is a great difference between the old and the new covenant approaches.
Per: It's interesting that a lot of Protestants want to keep the portions of the Law that do not mean giving up time (the Sabbath) or money (tithing). When those subjects come up, they yell, "The Law was done away!"
Kelly: Your own church follows dispensational hermeneutics when discussing eschatology. That means it admits that OT promises to national Israel are not the same as those for the church. However, you ignore those same dispensational hermeneutics when it comes to the law. When you say "The Law was NOT done away," you really "do away" with 99% of the law and only keep that which is convenient. Shame on you.
Per: It is a flawed argument. Why would God go to the trouble of sending His Son to die for our sins, transgressions against God's Law, only to free us so we can commit more sins?
Kelly: This is a paper tiger --a straw horse. Nobody argues this way. Do you obey God's law and kill disobedient children, Sabbath breakers and adulterors? Do you eat pork and lobster? Do you wear mixed-fabric clothing? Jesus freed us because we DIED to law as a principle which guides our lives per Romans 7:4. Jesus freed us so that we can serve in newness of life as new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to John 16:8-9 Jesus is the new standard of judgment, not the law.
Per: That would be like the person hauled into court and forgiven of his crime running out to commit the same crime again, would it not?
Kelly: No. The OT person was not let out. The OT believer DIED in Christ and was RESURRECTED with a NEW NATURE. His/her desire has changed by that miracle. He/she no longer wants to disobey God.
Per: Have you not read the article "Have Christians As a Whole Left Behind the Teachings of Christ?"? Or, how about "The Ten Commandments"?
Kelly: Your error here is to use the word "law" to mean the Ten Commandments. Read Romans 3:1-20 and tell me how many of the Ten Commandments have been quoted.
Per: You reference a Scripture that says a law was anulled, but you don't quote it. Let's look at it, shall we?
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
~ Heb 7:18
Now, you yourself state "The first rule of understanding the Bible is the context of the text being quoted." So, what is the context of Heb 7:18? What law was "disanulled" or "set aside" (NIV)? The "former law" he was talking about was:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
~ vv 12-13
It was the law that the priesthood came from the line of Aaron. It was weak and profitless because it was a priesthood of men. God setup a more perfect priesthood throught the High Priest Jesus Christ, Who is immortal.
Kelly: Wrong. The FIRST USE of the words "law," "tithes" and "commandment" in Hebrews is found in 7:5 Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:KJV
The law which must be changed according to 7:12 was the law of tithing from the context of 7:5. The commandment which was annulled in 7:18 was the commandment of tithing from 7:5.
Per: You further wrote: Matthew 23:23 is a discussion of "matters of the law" and is addressed to the first century interpreters of the law who turned tithing into a burden by adding household garden herbs.From Leviticus to Luke (16 texts) the true biblical tithe only meant food from inside Israel. God defined it that way!"
I suggest you go back and reread part one. Not only did God make provisions to turn it into money, but Abraham and Jacob tithed on all.
Kelly: God made provisions to turn the tithe into money only because the tithe was only food. This was a very temporary provision because the money was turned back into food. And Abraham and Jacob's tithes were not the same has holy tithes from a holy God's land. Admit it. Their source was pagan and would not have been accepted as legitimate tithes into the Temple.
Kelly: "Pagan tithing was in place in all Abraham's known world alongside idolatry, child sacrifices and temple prostitution. Being very old and very common does not make something an eternal moral principle.
Read Numbers 31 which is a discussion of the statute of the law concerning tithes from spoils of war. It is only one per cent. Abraham and Jacob's tithes from pagan Haran of Syria were not considered to be holy tithes in the law. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any church today."
Per: Wait a minute! So, now tithing is pagan? Explain this one, please. In what manner are the examples of Abraham and Jacob not followed today and why?
Kelly: Do not take my word for it. Read article which follows my essay on page one. Also go to any public library and research the origins of tithing. Also look up the word "tithing" in the Encyclopedia Britannica and American and any other major encyclopedia. They all show that tithing originated as a pagan custom. Concerning Abraham, please tell me what he actually DID which is followed by you and the church today. (1) Only pagan spoils of war, (2) Only once recorded, (3) nothing of his own personal property, (4) kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Per: I notice that Numbers 31 calls it a "tribute" and not a "tithe". It appears to be a special case, and it does not say that it was an ordinance to be carried out every time. Notice how the NASB calls it a "tax". It seems similar to the "ransom" (NASB) in Numbers 3 in that it appears to be a one-time deal. However, the tithe commands all say "when", which show they were laws and not one-time commands. Your citing of Numbers 31 is a weak argument, in my estimation.
Kelly: Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Kelly: 1 Cor 9:12-19 shows that Paul refused to exercise his right to be paid (even partially) and preferred to work for free.
Per: Yet, by your own admission, it was his "right". That money would have come from the Church, and it would be paid from members' tithing.
Kelly: That does not prove that Paul was teaching tithing. He had a right because he was serving them and was poor. The soldier's wage (opsonion) Paul occasionally received was a daily supply.
Kelly: Most assume that everybody in the OT was required to begin his/her level of giving at ten per cent. That is a false assumption because only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify.
Please stop teaching Old Covenant tithing to New Covenant believers. That which God wanted His Church to obey he repeated and restated to it after Calvary in terms of grace and faith. And tithes were not repeated. Neither do we have Levites and superior priests who must forfeit inheritance rights.
Per: You utilize an argument similar to the atheist who asks why God won't appear to him or her. They seem to have the expectation that God must appear in each and every generation to revalidate Himself. Why should God have to repeat the entire Law in order for you to follow it?
Kelly: You have no consistent hermeneutic. It is a "pick and choose" as you so desire. You discard the vast majority of the Old Covenant law and keep one or two parts of it you like. Please tell me what guideline you use to make these decisions.
Per: Furthermore, why should I stop teaching what is still shown to be valid in the NT?
Kelly: Where is tithing shown to the Church after Calvary?
Per: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
~ Ro 7:12
Kelly: Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.KJV
Per:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:~ Heb 8:9-10
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
~ v 13
Kelly: Are you now agreeing with me? The Old Covenant has indeed VANISHED.
Per: What was the New Covenant based on? What was different other than writing the laws on the hearts and minds? Why would the Old Covenant vanish away? Again, Hebrews tells us the answer.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.~ Heb 8:6
Kelly: Amen. Hallelujah. You agree with me.
Per: The New Covenant has better, longer lasting promises. We are given God's Holy Spirit, something not generally available to ancient Israel. We have the promise of eternal life, while ancient Israel had promises of national greatness.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
...For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:~ Ro 7:14, 22
Kelly: Does that mean all 600+ commandments, judgments and ordinances of the law? Explain yourself.
Per: Yes, the Old Covenant was done away with because it had physical promises. It could not forgive sins, and it could not grant eternal life. Yet, the Law, the core of the Covenant, was basically unchanged, except for the portions fulfilled through Christ's sacrifice and the granting of the Holy Spirit.
Kelly: The Law was not the "core of the covenant." The Law WAS the covenant.
Per: We have explicit Bible verses that spell those changes out, most of which have to do with the sacrificial system.
Kelly: You are telling me that the Church of God uses dispensational hermeneutics for prophecy and then uses covenantal theology hermeneutics for the Old Covenant law. I reject that. The entire Old Covenant vanished per Hebrews 8:13 --not just parts of it. Read the text again and again and again.
Per: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
~ Mt 5:18
Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still standing. Last time I checked, all had not been fulfilled, as Christ's Kingdom has not been established on earth.
Kelly: Last time I checked the Church of God has still stopped obeying 99% of what is contained in the Old Covenant law. That makes you guilty of Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." In Matt5:20-48 Jesus quoted the commandments, statutes and judgemtns to illustrate his point. Yes, yes, yes, Jesus totally fulfilled all of the righteous requirements of the Law as pointed out in Matthew many times. I am sorry that you do not understand that.
Per:Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.~ Ro 3:31
Kelly: From Romans 1:1 to 3:31 he has quoted from Psalms and Isaiah and used the word "law" to mean "God's revelation of His righteous requirements." In acknowledging our sinfulness because the law has condemned us and driven us to salvation by grace through faith alone, the law has fulfilled its purpose.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: KJV
Per: What then? shall we sin [transgress the law, 1Jn 3:4], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
~ 6:15
Kelly: Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Tuesday, August 25, 2009
Reply to Mac Brunson on Tithing, FBC Jax
Rebuttal of Pastor Mac Brunson, FBC Jacksonville, Fl on Tithing,
8/20/09 edited
Brunson: "Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgment of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?
Kelly: Our national economic problems are the result of SIN. Sinful greedy politicians, stock brokers, bankers and real estate promoters ignored common sense in encouraging low income families to purchase Adjustable Rate Mortgages which they defaulted on when the rates went up.
Brunson: Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen: Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe?
Kelly: If "God's people" is a reference to New Covenant Christians, then the answer is definitely NOT! Or should I say "No, you educated idiot!" Do you have an advance degree from a seminary? Did you not learn that the Church is under the New Covenant? Did you not learn that the Old Covenant was never made with the Church or Gentiles? Did you not read in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant VANISHED over 2000 years ago? Did you not read that the statute/ordinance of tithing was ANNULLED per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18? Do you own property in violation of Numbers 18?
Brunson: Well, more of you amened it than I thought.
Kelly: Many of the sheep who are being fleeced the most think that God owes them salvation because they have purchased it.
Brunson: But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it.
Kelly: I, for one, do not like what you are inferring. And I, for one, would dearly love an extended detailed dialog with you or with any other SBC leader on the doctrine of tithing. I demonstrate from your own SBC web site that Baptist Confessions of Faith did not even include tithing texts until 1963.
Brunson: I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."
Kelly: The whole Law was a test --not merely tithing-- and you very well know that I am correct!!! Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Nehemiah's audience asked God to curse them for violating the Old Covenant in Neh 10:29 and Malachi reminds us of the entire covenant in Mal 4:4. Your hermeneutics are upside down and totally indefensible. Paul had you in mind when he called your doctrine "witchcraft" in Galatians 3:1 and said that anybody trying to earn God's blessings because of obedience to only one part of the law as seriously mistaken in Gal 3:10-13. Why do you promote the 3:10 of Malachi and ignore the 3:10 of Galatians? Do you have an agenda?
You may forward this challenge to Mac Brunson for me.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
8/20/09 edited
Brunson: "Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgment of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?
Kelly: Our national economic problems are the result of SIN. Sinful greedy politicians, stock brokers, bankers and real estate promoters ignored common sense in encouraging low income families to purchase Adjustable Rate Mortgages which they defaulted on when the rates went up.
Brunson: Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen: Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe?
Kelly: If "God's people" is a reference to New Covenant Christians, then the answer is definitely NOT! Or should I say "No, you educated idiot!" Do you have an advance degree from a seminary? Did you not learn that the Church is under the New Covenant? Did you not learn that the Old Covenant was never made with the Church or Gentiles? Did you not read in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant VANISHED over 2000 years ago? Did you not read that the statute/ordinance of tithing was ANNULLED per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18? Do you own property in violation of Numbers 18?
Brunson: Well, more of you amened it than I thought.
Kelly: Many of the sheep who are being fleeced the most think that God owes them salvation because they have purchased it.
Brunson: But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it.
Kelly: I, for one, do not like what you are inferring. And I, for one, would dearly love an extended detailed dialog with you or with any other SBC leader on the doctrine of tithing. I demonstrate from your own SBC web site that Baptist Confessions of Faith did not even include tithing texts until 1963.
Brunson: I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."
Kelly: The whole Law was a test --not merely tithing-- and you very well know that I am correct!!! Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Nehemiah's audience asked God to curse them for violating the Old Covenant in Neh 10:29 and Malachi reminds us of the entire covenant in Mal 4:4. Your hermeneutics are upside down and totally indefensible. Paul had you in mind when he called your doctrine "witchcraft" in Galatians 3:1 and said that anybody trying to earn God's blessings because of obedience to only one part of the law as seriously mistaken in Gal 3:10-13. Why do you promote the 3:10 of Malachi and ignore the 3:10 of Galatians? Do you have an agenda?
You may forward this challenge to Mac Brunson for me.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Are churches businesses?
A basic New Covenant biblical church only had multiple elders, many deacons church members and no tax exempt status. Travelling missionaries and pastors were usually mostly self-supported.
A business has one CEO, a board of directors, a building, motivation seminars, entertainment, huge expenses for property, advertising, budget planning, retreats and guaranteed CEO salary.
Now you tell me which description best fits the modern "church."
A business has one CEO, a board of directors, a building, motivation seminars, entertainment, huge expenses for property, advertising, budget planning, retreats and guaranteed CEO salary.
Now you tell me which description best fits the modern "church."
Reply to Church of God Perspecitve
Reply to Church of God Perspective on Tithing
http://cogperspective.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithing-part-2-how-many-tithes-and-what.html EDITED
Kelly: Can you picture a lawyer in the USA arguing a case using even the good points of English law? Why is that obviously wrong, yet it is OK to argue using Old Covenant law? Well, God does not and cannot bless a New Covenant Christian because of obedience to annulled Old Covenant commandments per Heb 7:5, 12, 18?
According to Galatians 4:4, 5 Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law to redeem those (Hebrews) who were under the law. Of course he never once denounced tithing. Such would have been a sin on that side of Calvary.
The first rule of understanding the Bible is the context of the text being quoted. Matthew 23:23 is a discussion of "matters of the law" and is addressed to the first century interpreters of the law who turned tithing into a burden by adding household garden herbs.
From Leviticus to Luke (16 texts) the true biblical tithe only meant food from inside Israel. God defined it that way!
Pagan tithing was in place in all Abraham's known world alongside idolatry, child sacrifices and temple prostitution. Being very old and very common does not make something an eternal moral principle.
Read Numbers 31 which is a discussion of the statute of the law concerning tithes from spoils of war. It is only one per cent. Abraham and Jacob's tithes from pagan Haran of Syria were not considered to be holy tithes in the law. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any church today.
Mt 23:23 shows that Jesus still agreed with tithing to support the Aaronic priesthood before Calvary as "matters of the law." His death at Calvary necessitated a "change of the law of tithing" per Heb 7: and that change of 7:5 was its "annulment" in Heb 7:18.
Kelly: 1 Cor 9:12-19 shows that Paul refused to exercise his right to be paid (even partially) and preferred to work for free.
Per: It behooves us to learn as much about tithing as possible.
Kelly: Yes, indeed. Study it very thoroughly. See www.tithing-russkelly.com
Per: Yet, if you read the Scriptures with certain assumptions, it seems very confusing.
Kelly: Most assume that everybody in the OT was required to begin his/her level of giving at ten per cent. That is a false assumption because only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify.
Per: Dt 12:5-7, 11-12; Lev 27:30-32;
Nu 18:20-24; Nu 18:25-28. The first tithe supported the work of the tabernacle and, later, the work of the temple. This tithe belonged to God.
Kelly: None of the three tithes supported the work of the Temple. That was done by freewill offerings. The first tithe was only food.
Per: Dt 12:17-18; Dt 16:2-3, 5-7, 10-11, 13-16. You are to “consume” it before God. After all, how many of us are farmers these days? God has provisions for changing our work into money to use before Him as well.
Kelly: The second tithes was only food from inside Israel and must be eaten only in Jerusalem. Who does that today?
Per: Dt 14:22-27. It is important to note that we are to rejoice in God’s blessings.
Kelly: Yes, but "we" the church are under the New Covenant and never have been under the Old Covenant, therefore these texts are irrelevant. Rom 2:14-16.
Per: Dt 14:28-19; Dt 26:12-14
Kelly: The third tithe was also only food from inside Israel. It was to be kept in the homes and towns of Israel and nowhere else.
Please stop teaching Old Covenant tithing to New Covenant believers. That which God wanted His Church to obey he repeated and restated to it after Calvary in terms of grace and faith. And tithes were not repeated. Neither do we have Levites and superior priests who must forfeit inheritance rights.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://cogperspective.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithing-part-2-how-many-tithes-and-what.html EDITED
Kelly: Can you picture a lawyer in the USA arguing a case using even the good points of English law? Why is that obviously wrong, yet it is OK to argue using Old Covenant law? Well, God does not and cannot bless a New Covenant Christian because of obedience to annulled Old Covenant commandments per Heb 7:5, 12, 18?
According to Galatians 4:4, 5 Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law to redeem those (Hebrews) who were under the law. Of course he never once denounced tithing. Such would have been a sin on that side of Calvary.
The first rule of understanding the Bible is the context of the text being quoted. Matthew 23:23 is a discussion of "matters of the law" and is addressed to the first century interpreters of the law who turned tithing into a burden by adding household garden herbs.
From Leviticus to Luke (16 texts) the true biblical tithe only meant food from inside Israel. God defined it that way!
Pagan tithing was in place in all Abraham's known world alongside idolatry, child sacrifices and temple prostitution. Being very old and very common does not make something an eternal moral principle.
Read Numbers 31 which is a discussion of the statute of the law concerning tithes from spoils of war. It is only one per cent. Abraham and Jacob's tithes from pagan Haran of Syria were not considered to be holy tithes in the law. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any church today.
Mt 23:23 shows that Jesus still agreed with tithing to support the Aaronic priesthood before Calvary as "matters of the law." His death at Calvary necessitated a "change of the law of tithing" per Heb 7: and that change of 7:5 was its "annulment" in Heb 7:18.
Kelly: 1 Cor 9:12-19 shows that Paul refused to exercise his right to be paid (even partially) and preferred to work for free.
Per: It behooves us to learn as much about tithing as possible.
Kelly: Yes, indeed. Study it very thoroughly. See www.tithing-russkelly.com
Per: Yet, if you read the Scriptures with certain assumptions, it seems very confusing.
Kelly: Most assume that everybody in the OT was required to begin his/her level of giving at ten per cent. That is a false assumption because only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify.
Per: Dt 12:5-7, 11-12; Lev 27:30-32;
Nu 18:20-24; Nu 18:25-28. The first tithe supported the work of the tabernacle and, later, the work of the temple. This tithe belonged to God.
Kelly: None of the three tithes supported the work of the Temple. That was done by freewill offerings. The first tithe was only food.
Per: Dt 12:17-18; Dt 16:2-3, 5-7, 10-11, 13-16. You are to “consume” it before God. After all, how many of us are farmers these days? God has provisions for changing our work into money to use before Him as well.
Kelly: The second tithes was only food from inside Israel and must be eaten only in Jerusalem. Who does that today?
Per: Dt 14:22-27. It is important to note that we are to rejoice in God’s blessings.
Kelly: Yes, but "we" the church are under the New Covenant and never have been under the Old Covenant, therefore these texts are irrelevant. Rom 2:14-16.
Per: Dt 14:28-19; Dt 26:12-14
Kelly: The third tithe was also only food from inside Israel. It was to be kept in the homes and towns of Israel and nowhere else.
Please stop teaching Old Covenant tithing to New Covenant believers. That which God wanted His Church to obey he repeated and restated to it after Calvary in terms of grace and faith. And tithes were not repeated. Neither do we have Levites and superior priests who must forfeit inheritance rights.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Sunday, August 23, 2009
Reply to Pastor Suf in Tithing
Reply to Sufism and Spiritual Quality
http://csufi.blogspot.com/2009/08/truth-about-tithe.html edited
Suf: I don’t believe that the new covenant believer is commanded anywhere in the Bible to give ten percent of his income to God.
Kelly: You define tithe wrong. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did those who lived outside Israel.
Suf: If, having read this article, you still believe the Bible specifically commands us to tithe, then you should practice and teach it.
Kelly: Nobody can practice tithing today because the definition of only food from inside Israel never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Suf: Levitical Tithe: The first was a Levitical tithe in which ten percent of everything earned or grown was required to support the Levites and priests as they served in the tabernacle.
Kelly: You are defining tithe wrong. It was never something earned. The increase was due to a miracle from God from inside Israel.
Suf: This tithe was necessary because the Levites could not earn their own livelihood and work in the tabernacle at the same time. It was used to support the national priestly program. …….
Kelly: This is mostly false. Read Numbers 25 and Joshua 20 and 21. Also study on the 24 courses of Levites and priests. The Levites and priests lived on loaned land and worked as farmers and herdsmen of tithed animals. They also worked trades necessary to building and maintaining the Temple. They only worked in the Temple one week out of 24 per 1 Chronicles 23 to 26.
Suf: When I taught this to my congregation I always assured them that while we believed their interpretation was faulty, if they insisted on giving according to the Mosaic law of tithing they must give not ten, but at least twenty percent—and we would be happy to receive it!
Kelly: Good.
Suf: It is significant that nowhere in the New Testament is the new covenant believer commanded to tithe. As a matter of fact, there is no text in all of Scripture that commands God’s people to give a mere ten percent to God!
Kelly: It is very significant. So do not reintroduce it wearing a mask.
Suf: In light of what I’ve just written, you will probably be surprised to learn that I still believe in using the giving of a tithe as a guideline in leading God’s people into faithful stewardship. When preaching on stewardship in my church I taught that, while the giving of a tithe is not a biblical command, it is a helpful guideline to use in planning our giving. I showed them what the New Testament had to say about generous, sacrificial, and proportionate giving. I then told my people, "I’m convinced that American Christians are so prosperous that if we don’t start by giving a minimum of ten percent of our income to the Lord, we can’t possibly be fulfilling New Testament principles of giving.
Kelly: This conclusion is dishonest and deceitful. It is based on the false assumption that everybody in the Old Covenant began their level of giving at ten per cent. However only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Your reason for ignoring this is evident now. You have taken the tithe out of one hand and passed it behind your back to reintroduce it under a false pretense. Shame on you.
NT giving is indeed freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, motivated by love for God and love for lost souls. That means much more than 10% for many. But it means much less than 10% for others which you do not consider. First Timothy 5:8 must be considered. Many very good Christians must give their income first for medicine, food, shelter and other essential. It is wrong to call tithes firstfruits when biblical firstfruits were very small token offerings.
Please stop using the word tithe altogether. You are so close to being correct.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://csufi.blogspot.com/2009/08/truth-about-tithe.html edited
Suf: I don’t believe that the new covenant believer is commanded anywhere in the Bible to give ten percent of his income to God.
Kelly: You define tithe wrong. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did those who lived outside Israel.
Suf: If, having read this article, you still believe the Bible specifically commands us to tithe, then you should practice and teach it.
Kelly: Nobody can practice tithing today because the definition of only food from inside Israel never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke.
Suf: Levitical Tithe: The first was a Levitical tithe in which ten percent of everything earned or grown was required to support the Levites and priests as they served in the tabernacle.
Kelly: You are defining tithe wrong. It was never something earned. The increase was due to a miracle from God from inside Israel.
Suf: This tithe was necessary because the Levites could not earn their own livelihood and work in the tabernacle at the same time. It was used to support the national priestly program. …….
Kelly: This is mostly false. Read Numbers 25 and Joshua 20 and 21. Also study on the 24 courses of Levites and priests. The Levites and priests lived on loaned land and worked as farmers and herdsmen of tithed animals. They also worked trades necessary to building and maintaining the Temple. They only worked in the Temple one week out of 24 per 1 Chronicles 23 to 26.
Suf: When I taught this to my congregation I always assured them that while we believed their interpretation was faulty, if they insisted on giving according to the Mosaic law of tithing they must give not ten, but at least twenty percent—and we would be happy to receive it!
Kelly: Good.
Suf: It is significant that nowhere in the New Testament is the new covenant believer commanded to tithe. As a matter of fact, there is no text in all of Scripture that commands God’s people to give a mere ten percent to God!
Kelly: It is very significant. So do not reintroduce it wearing a mask.
Suf: In light of what I’ve just written, you will probably be surprised to learn that I still believe in using the giving of a tithe as a guideline in leading God’s people into faithful stewardship. When preaching on stewardship in my church I taught that, while the giving of a tithe is not a biblical command, it is a helpful guideline to use in planning our giving. I showed them what the New Testament had to say about generous, sacrificial, and proportionate giving. I then told my people, "I’m convinced that American Christians are so prosperous that if we don’t start by giving a minimum of ten percent of our income to the Lord, we can’t possibly be fulfilling New Testament principles of giving.
Kelly: This conclusion is dishonest and deceitful. It is based on the false assumption that everybody in the Old Covenant began their level of giving at ten per cent. However only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Your reason for ignoring this is evident now. You have taken the tithe out of one hand and passed it behind your back to reintroduce it under a false pretense. Shame on you.
NT giving is indeed freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, motivated by love for God and love for lost souls. That means much more than 10% for many. But it means much less than 10% for others which you do not consider. First Timothy 5:8 must be considered. Many very good Christians must give their income first for medicine, food, shelter and other essential. It is wrong to call tithes firstfruits when biblical firstfruits were very small token offerings.
Please stop using the word tithe altogether. You are so close to being correct.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Friday, August 21, 2009
Reply to Chrstian Singles on Tithing
Reply to MBaker, Christian Singles
Why the Tithe, mejbaker, Jul 14, 2008 and Aug 21, 2009
http://proverbs1822.com/
Kelly: This is all true and can be validated with scores of Bible texts in context as will follow.
MBaker: They say it has no part of the New Covenant and that it is legalistic and holds us in bondage.
Kelly: Christians are New Covenant after Calvary and God deals with them under wholly New Covenant conditions. God never commanded the Church to obey Old Covenant contextual commands.
MBaker:
According to Strong's … a tenth. I don't want to bore you with definitions; however it is important to understand the meaning of something before we talk about it.
Kelly: You only did half of your homework. In 16 of 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe, it is always only food from inside Israel. Although money was very common even in Genesis, money was never included in tithes for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Period.
MBaker:
Gen 14:18-20. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek who was a type of the coming Christ. … It is important to note that throughout the Bible the first time something is mentioned it is commonly called the law of first mention.
Kelly: Genesis 14 is the first mention of a priest-king so David used his ORDER as a type of the Messiah in Psalm 110:4. He did not use his PERSON.
MBaker: The reason that this is important is because it establishes a precedent in the Word of God.
Kelly: Please tell me what part of what Abraham did is a precedent followed by yourself or the Church. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) nothing of is own personal possessions, (3) he kept nothing, (4) not a holy tithe from a holy land, (5) only once recorded and (6) gave the 90% to the King of Sodom. And Moses never referred to Abraham as the first type for tithing in the Law.
MBaker: There is no mention that anyone told him to do it. He was certainly under no compulsion or coercion to do this. There was no law to command Him to do this yet was there? Did he do this of his own volition?
Kelly: The Bibl does not say that he did it voluntarily. The historical fact is that tithing existed in all pagan nations of Abraham's time and he knew the custom from Babylon. He was required by Canaanite custom to give tithes of spoils of war to his priest-king.
MBaker:
Abraham worshiped God as an act of his free will. God thought it was significant enough to have it recorded in the Scripture for posterity.
Kelly: You are making a super big deal out of something that is not found in the Bible.
MBaker: Did God bless him because of his honoring Him first?
Kelly: God greatly blessed Abraham after he had disobeyed and lied about his wife to Pharaoh. There are no blessings to Abraham mentioned in Genesis because he tithed.
MBaker: Yes, He absolutely did! God always blesses those who honor Him first.
Kelly: Now you are implying that tithes are the firstfruits when they are never that in Scripture. Firstfruits are very small token offerings. See Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38.
MBaker:
Whatever God requires of us, He requires it of a free and willing heart.
Kelly: This is always true in the New Covenant. It was not true concerning tithes in the Old Covenant. Tithing food from inside Israel was cold hard law and was required whether one desired to or was joyful.
MBaker: Mt 5:17-19
Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law.
Kelly: Jesus completely fulfilled the Old Covenant law in order to redeem the Hebrews who were under that Law. That Old Covenant law has "vanished" according to Hebrews 8:8-13. It has been "blotted out," "nailed to the cross" and "annulled" per Eph 2:13-17; Col 2:13-17 and Heb 7:5, 12, 18. Believers are "dead to law" per Romans 7:4. For believers, the law is parked like a school bus which carried us to school for 12 years. The righteous standard of God is now Jesus Christ per John 16:8-9.
MBaker: The commandments that were written legalistically weren't abolished, they're now written in our hearts.
Kelly: The law which is written in our hearts is NOT the OLD Covenant Law. It is the "law of love," the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ" which is the eternal moral character of God per Romans 8:1-2 and many others. The OT law commanded you to kill your disobedient children. Do you do that?
MBaker:
We can see in the book of Genesis that the tithe was initiated before the law.
Kelly: Just because something is before the law does not automatically make it an eternal moral principle. Along with tithing, the pagans of Abraham's day worshipped idols, offered child sacrifices and practiced temple prostitution -- not eternal moral principles.
MBaker: Has God changed? The Word says that He is the same yesterday today and forever.
Kelly: And what does that mean? Does it mean that we are still under the whole Old Covenant law? Or does it mean that he deals with OT Israel under the Old Covenant terms he made with them and he deals with the Church under the New Covenant terms he honors with us?
MBaker: Do you think His attitude towards honor has changed? In the book of Malachi we can see the importance of our attitude in our giving and the tithe.
Kelly: "Our" attitude is not seen in Malachi. It is the dishonest Old Covenant-breaking attitude of the dishonest priests from 1:6 and 2:1 who were cursed in 1:14 and 2:2 for stealing the tithe from 1:13 and 3:5. They had asked God to curse them for not tithing in Neh 10:29.
MBaker: In chapter 1:6-14 we can see the Lord God is upset with the children of Israel.
Kelly: No. Read verse 6. He is only angry with the priests.
MBaker: They missed the entire point.
Kelly: You miss the entire doctrine. You are a New Covenant Christian trying to preach an Old Covenant law which has been annulled. That is like trying to argue English law in an American court. No matter how good it is, it does not apply to us in our country.
MBaker: The third chapter of Malachi is the more familiar section of Scripture that I want to look at. Here God is showing us how to receive His blessing.
Kelly: Read Galatians 3:10-13. The curse of the law, including the curse of not-tithing, was nailed to the cross. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. You cannot tithe and break the other 600+ commands and expect God to bless you. Obey ALL to be blessed (not just one); break ONE to be cursed. You cannot obey an American law and ask God to bless you for obedience to an English law which does not apply.
MBaker: Deu 26:1-4
Kelly: Deut 26:1-4 is a discussion of firstfruits, not tithes. They were small enough to fit into a small hand basket. They were very small token offerings. On the other hand, tithes could only be given after the full harvest is measured. Deuteronomy commanded Israel to EAT the second tithe in the street of Jerusalem. Do you do that?
MBaker: Deu. 26:16-18
Kelly: Deut 26's closing discusses the third year poor tithe which was kept in the homes and towns for the poor. Do you do that? If you do not do it, then why quote the text?
MBaker: Heb. 7:4-9 shows the superiority of the Melchizedek priesthood to the Levitical
MBaker: Many have said that tithing has been done away with, and that it is for the Old Covenant only.
Kelly: All tithe-teachers stop reading Hebrews 7 at verse 9 or 10. Your "first-mention" for "commandment, tithes and law" in Hebrews is verse 5. Next 7:12 says that is "necessary to change to law" of tithing from verse 5. Finally, verse 18 says that the "commandment going before" of tithing from verse 5 has been "annulled" because of its "weakness and unprofitableness."
NT giving for the Church after Calvary is: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and others. It has the blessings of the Holy Spirit and tithing does not.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Why the Tithe, mejbaker, Jul 14, 2008 and Aug 21, 2009
http://proverbs1822.com/
Kelly: This is all true and can be validated with scores of Bible texts in context as will follow.
MBaker: They say it has no part of the New Covenant and that it is legalistic and holds us in bondage.
Kelly: Christians are New Covenant after Calvary and God deals with them under wholly New Covenant conditions. God never commanded the Church to obey Old Covenant contextual commands.
MBaker:
According to Strong's … a tenth. I don't want to bore you with definitions; however it is important to understand the meaning of something before we talk about it.
Kelly: You only did half of your homework. In 16 of 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe, it is always only food from inside Israel. Although money was very common even in Genesis, money was never included in tithes for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Period.
MBaker:
Gen 14:18-20. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek who was a type of the coming Christ. … It is important to note that throughout the Bible the first time something is mentioned it is commonly called the law of first mention.
Kelly: Genesis 14 is the first mention of a priest-king so David used his ORDER as a type of the Messiah in Psalm 110:4. He did not use his PERSON.
MBaker: The reason that this is important is because it establishes a precedent in the Word of God.
Kelly: Please tell me what part of what Abraham did is a precedent followed by yourself or the Church. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) nothing of is own personal possessions, (3) he kept nothing, (4) not a holy tithe from a holy land, (5) only once recorded and (6) gave the 90% to the King of Sodom. And Moses never referred to Abraham as the first type for tithing in the Law.
MBaker: There is no mention that anyone told him to do it. He was certainly under no compulsion or coercion to do this. There was no law to command Him to do this yet was there? Did he do this of his own volition?
Kelly: The Bibl does not say that he did it voluntarily. The historical fact is that tithing existed in all pagan nations of Abraham's time and he knew the custom from Babylon. He was required by Canaanite custom to give tithes of spoils of war to his priest-king.
MBaker:
Abraham worshiped God as an act of his free will. God thought it was significant enough to have it recorded in the Scripture for posterity.
Kelly: You are making a super big deal out of something that is not found in the Bible.
MBaker: Did God bless him because of his honoring Him first?
Kelly: God greatly blessed Abraham after he had disobeyed and lied about his wife to Pharaoh. There are no blessings to Abraham mentioned in Genesis because he tithed.
MBaker: Yes, He absolutely did! God always blesses those who honor Him first.
Kelly: Now you are implying that tithes are the firstfruits when they are never that in Scripture. Firstfruits are very small token offerings. See Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38.
MBaker:
Whatever God requires of us, He requires it of a free and willing heart.
Kelly: This is always true in the New Covenant. It was not true concerning tithes in the Old Covenant. Tithing food from inside Israel was cold hard law and was required whether one desired to or was joyful.
MBaker: Mt 5:17-19
Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law.
Kelly: Jesus completely fulfilled the Old Covenant law in order to redeem the Hebrews who were under that Law. That Old Covenant law has "vanished" according to Hebrews 8:8-13. It has been "blotted out," "nailed to the cross" and "annulled" per Eph 2:13-17; Col 2:13-17 and Heb 7:5, 12, 18. Believers are "dead to law" per Romans 7:4. For believers, the law is parked like a school bus which carried us to school for 12 years. The righteous standard of God is now Jesus Christ per John 16:8-9.
MBaker: The commandments that were written legalistically weren't abolished, they're now written in our hearts.
Kelly: The law which is written in our hearts is NOT the OLD Covenant Law. It is the "law of love," the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ" which is the eternal moral character of God per Romans 8:1-2 and many others. The OT law commanded you to kill your disobedient children. Do you do that?
MBaker:
We can see in the book of Genesis that the tithe was initiated before the law.
Kelly: Just because something is before the law does not automatically make it an eternal moral principle. Along with tithing, the pagans of Abraham's day worshipped idols, offered child sacrifices and practiced temple prostitution -- not eternal moral principles.
MBaker: Has God changed? The Word says that He is the same yesterday today and forever.
Kelly: And what does that mean? Does it mean that we are still under the whole Old Covenant law? Or does it mean that he deals with OT Israel under the Old Covenant terms he made with them and he deals with the Church under the New Covenant terms he honors with us?
MBaker: Do you think His attitude towards honor has changed? In the book of Malachi we can see the importance of our attitude in our giving and the tithe.
Kelly: "Our" attitude is not seen in Malachi. It is the dishonest Old Covenant-breaking attitude of the dishonest priests from 1:6 and 2:1 who were cursed in 1:14 and 2:2 for stealing the tithe from 1:13 and 3:5. They had asked God to curse them for not tithing in Neh 10:29.
MBaker: In chapter 1:6-14 we can see the Lord God is upset with the children of Israel.
Kelly: No. Read verse 6. He is only angry with the priests.
MBaker: They missed the entire point.
Kelly: You miss the entire doctrine. You are a New Covenant Christian trying to preach an Old Covenant law which has been annulled. That is like trying to argue English law in an American court. No matter how good it is, it does not apply to us in our country.
MBaker: The third chapter of Malachi is the more familiar section of Scripture that I want to look at. Here God is showing us how to receive His blessing.
Kelly: Read Galatians 3:10-13. The curse of the law, including the curse of not-tithing, was nailed to the cross. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. You cannot tithe and break the other 600+ commands and expect God to bless you. Obey ALL to be blessed (not just one); break ONE to be cursed. You cannot obey an American law and ask God to bless you for obedience to an English law which does not apply.
MBaker: Deu 26:1-4
Kelly: Deut 26:1-4 is a discussion of firstfruits, not tithes. They were small enough to fit into a small hand basket. They were very small token offerings. On the other hand, tithes could only be given after the full harvest is measured. Deuteronomy commanded Israel to EAT the second tithe in the street of Jerusalem. Do you do that?
MBaker: Deu. 26:16-18
Kelly: Deut 26's closing discusses the third year poor tithe which was kept in the homes and towns for the poor. Do you do that? If you do not do it, then why quote the text?
MBaker: Heb. 7:4-9 shows the superiority of the Melchizedek priesthood to the Levitical
MBaker: Many have said that tithing has been done away with, and that it is for the Old Covenant only.
Kelly: All tithe-teachers stop reading Hebrews 7 at verse 9 or 10. Your "first-mention" for "commandment, tithes and law" in Hebrews is verse 5. Next 7:12 says that is "necessary to change to law" of tithing from verse 5. Finally, verse 18 says that the "commandment going before" of tithing from verse 5 has been "annulled" because of its "weakness and unprofitableness."
NT giving for the Church after Calvary is: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and others. It has the blessings of the Holy Spirit and tithing does not.
Russell Earl Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Tuesday, August 18, 2009
Rebuttal of Kenneth Copeland on Tithing
Rebuttal of Kenneth Copeland on Tithing
Understanding Tithing, Kenneth Copeland
http://www.kcm.org/real-help/article/understanding-tithing
Russell Kelly: When it comes to discussing any doctrine with Word of Faith preachers such as Kenneth Copeland, it is impossible to dialog from the standpoint of biblical hermeneutics (principles of interpretation). Word of Faith ignores context and uses God's Word as a magic Ouija board to pull meaning out of individual words against God's teaching.
Copeland: "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 3:10-11).
Kelly: This is the most mis-interpreted text in all of the Bible. God does not and cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their supposed obedience to one of hundreds of Old Covenant commands which were never commanded to the Church after Calvary (1:1, 6; 2:1). See my long discussion at http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id86.html.
Copeland: This is God Himself speaking and He is saying, "Prove Me in this." This is the only time in the Word where God instructs us to prove Him, and it is the one area where most people have withdrawn from proving God.
Kelly: First, Malachi was addressed only to Old Covenant national Israel and NOT to New Covenant Christians. Second, the statement by Copeland is false. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. The only way to claim blessings from tithing would be to obey the whole Old Covenant law (Neh 10:29; Gal 3:110-13). And, even then, God is working through His New Covenant stipulations. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id154.html.
Copeland: Tithing was instituted under the Old Covenant as a way for God to communicate His blessing to His people.
Kelly: Notice that Copeland does not even give "out of context" texts to vallidate this statement. He merely declares it to be so! That is his specialty. Tithing was instituted in Numbers 18 to sustain Levites and priests for ministering in the sanctuary and for losing land and property inheritance. Copeland gets both: he received the tithe and he owns much property which is against the tithing law.
Copeland: The word tithe means "tenth or ten percent."
Kelly: This is the greatest lie of tithe-teachers. If one defines "tithe" from God's Word it always refers only to food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctaury worship, money was never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those (like almost all of us) who lived outside of Israel in defiled pagan lands.
Copeland: Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase." Tithes are to be given from the first fruits, from the top— the gross, not the net.
Kelly: This is another common lle told by tithe-teachers. Firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing in the Bible. Firstfruits were very small token offerings per Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38 and the Pentecost wave-sheaf. Tithes were tenth-fruit only after the full harvest or every tenth animal --whether the best or not per Lev 27:30-34.
Copeland: A person who does not tithe is robbing God and is operating under a curse (Malachi 3:8-9). The first fruits of our income is God's; it is not ours to use to pay bills.
Kelly: Copeland has combined two lies here. If he receives tithes, then he should obey the whole tithing satute of Numbers 18. (1) Give the first whole Levitical tithe to Levite servants such as ushers, deacons, choir, musicians and politicians per 18:21-24 and 1 Chron 23 to 26. (2) Only give 1% to priests per 18:25-28. (3) Ignore the NT doctrine of the priesthood of every believer. (4) Only allow preachers inside the sanctuary. (5) Forfeit property ownrship and (6) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. See Numbers 18.
Copeland: Tithing is different from seed-faith gifts and offerings. The tithe is your 10 percent that God commands us to give—gifts and offerings are above and beyond it.
Kelly: Tithes were always only food from food producers inside Israel. Everybody else could only give freewill offerings. The NT church alwalys only gave freewill offerings.
Copeland: Some people want to give "as the Lord leads them" instead of tithing—but the Spirit would never lead you against His Word. The Word says to tithe.
Kelly: Notice tha Copeland has no biblical validation for the church because the church was never commadned by the Spirit to tithe.
Copeland: Tithing is not only an Old Covenant command, but also a New Testament blessing and privilege. Hebrews 7:8 says, "Here men that die receive tithes. But there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."
Kelly: Copeland ignores the context of Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18, 19. In 7:12 we are told that it was "necessary to change the law" of tithing first mentioned in 7:5. And 7:18 says that the "commandment going before" to tithe from 7:5 had been "annulled" because of its "weakness" and "unprofitableness"and because of the better new covenant of 7:19.
Copeland: In the Old Covenant, God's people would place their tithe—the first fruits of their increase—in a basket, present it to the high priest, and say to him, "I profess this day unto the Lord thy God, that I am come unto the country which the Lord sware unto our fathers for to give us" (Deuteronomy 26:2-3). They spoke their redemption.
Kelly: Manipulation! Read Deuteronomy 26:1-4. It is speaking of the firstfrutis and not the tithe. And the "firstfruits" are so very small that they would fit into a small handbasket.
Copeland: According to Colossians 1:13, we have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. As believers, we are living in the kingdom of God. We have entered into our inheritance in Jesus Christ and possess it in His Name. Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant.
Kelly: Copeland is mixing context to emphasize his false conclusion.
Copeland: When we take our tithes to our High Priest and speak our redemption, He receives them and then presents them to the Father (Hebrews 3:1, 7:8).
Kelly: This is classic Word of Faith out-of-context manipulation. There is no connection between Hebrews 3:1 and 7:8. Copeland says that our tithes must be with us when we approach God --sounds like a bribe. Are the poor to tithe and do without medication and essential food and shelter? Copeland thinks so.
Copeland: When we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance. Satan has no chance against us.
Kelly: We stand on the New Covenant which was sealed at Calvary and given to the Church after Calvary. It does not contain a single word commanding the church to tithe. NT giving is freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls. For many that means more than 10% and for many others means less than 10%. Satan has no chance with us even if we cannot afford to give 10%.
Copeland: Tithing the tithe rebukes the devourer!
Kelly: The context is that of food from Israel and the definition of food never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Why?
Copeland: When we resist Satan in the Name of Jesus, God's rebuke is in action.
Kelly: This is true whether or not one can afford to give 10%. The poor widow had nothing to give after giving her last cent.
Copeland: God told the Israelites their words were stout against Him. They were confessing lack and want. It is important to speak our redemption in order for the tithe to produce.
Kelly: This is Word of Faith gibberish which ignores the context.
Copeland: Where you place you tithe depends on where you are receiving your spiritual food. God says to bring the tithes into the storehouse. That is where the food is—where a pastor, an evangelist, an apostle or some other ministry is in operation.
Kelly: Read Nehemiah 10:37b-38. The ordinary people were commnded to bring their tithes to the 48 (later 13) Levitical cities where the Levites and priests received them together per Numbers 35 and Joshua 20 and 21. Also read Nehemiah 13:5. The Temple only had two small storerooms to hold the tithe for those rotating a week at a time in service. Malachi 3:10 makes no sense unless it only refers to the dishonest priests of 1:13-14. The ekklesia-church is not a storehouse and no buildings existed for over 200 years after Calvary.
Copeland: When you give, you are not giving to an individual, but for the furtherance of the gospel. Since your tithe is God's money and since Jesus is the One who handles and receives it, you should always pray and let Him tell you where it should be put to work.
Kelly: Copeland, Hinn, the Crouches and al of the Word of Faith preachers will gladly receive your sacrifice and use it to buy airplanes and many properties in violation of Numbers 18.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Understanding Tithing, Kenneth Copeland
http://www.kcm.org/real-help/article/understanding-tithing
Russell Kelly: When it comes to discussing any doctrine with Word of Faith preachers such as Kenneth Copeland, it is impossible to dialog from the standpoint of biblical hermeneutics (principles of interpretation). Word of Faith ignores context and uses God's Word as a magic Ouija board to pull meaning out of individual words against God's teaching.
Copeland: "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 3:10-11).
Kelly: This is the most mis-interpreted text in all of the Bible. God does not and cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their supposed obedience to one of hundreds of Old Covenant commands which were never commanded to the Church after Calvary (1:1, 6; 2:1). See my long discussion at http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id86.html.
Copeland: This is God Himself speaking and He is saying, "Prove Me in this." This is the only time in the Word where God instructs us to prove Him, and it is the one area where most people have withdrawn from proving God.
Kelly: First, Malachi was addressed only to Old Covenant national Israel and NOT to New Covenant Christians. Second, the statement by Copeland is false. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. The only way to claim blessings from tithing would be to obey the whole Old Covenant law (Neh 10:29; Gal 3:110-13). And, even then, God is working through His New Covenant stipulations. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id154.html.
Copeland: Tithing was instituted under the Old Covenant as a way for God to communicate His blessing to His people.
Kelly: Notice that Copeland does not even give "out of context" texts to vallidate this statement. He merely declares it to be so! That is his specialty. Tithing was instituted in Numbers 18 to sustain Levites and priests for ministering in the sanctuary and for losing land and property inheritance. Copeland gets both: he received the tithe and he owns much property which is against the tithing law.
Copeland: The word tithe means "tenth or ten percent."
Kelly: This is the greatest lie of tithe-teachers. If one defines "tithe" from God's Word it always refers only to food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctaury worship, money was never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those (like almost all of us) who lived outside of Israel in defiled pagan lands.
Copeland: Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase." Tithes are to be given from the first fruits, from the top— the gross, not the net.
Kelly: This is another common lle told by tithe-teachers. Firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing in the Bible. Firstfruits were very small token offerings per Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-38 and the Pentecost wave-sheaf. Tithes were tenth-fruit only after the full harvest or every tenth animal --whether the best or not per Lev 27:30-34.
Copeland: A person who does not tithe is robbing God and is operating under a curse (Malachi 3:8-9). The first fruits of our income is God's; it is not ours to use to pay bills.
Kelly: Copeland has combined two lies here. If he receives tithes, then he should obey the whole tithing satute of Numbers 18. (1) Give the first whole Levitical tithe to Levite servants such as ushers, deacons, choir, musicians and politicians per 18:21-24 and 1 Chron 23 to 26. (2) Only give 1% to priests per 18:25-28. (3) Ignore the NT doctrine of the priesthood of every believer. (4) Only allow preachers inside the sanctuary. (5) Forfeit property ownrship and (6) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. See Numbers 18.
Copeland: Tithing is different from seed-faith gifts and offerings. The tithe is your 10 percent that God commands us to give—gifts and offerings are above and beyond it.
Kelly: Tithes were always only food from food producers inside Israel. Everybody else could only give freewill offerings. The NT church alwalys only gave freewill offerings.
Copeland: Some people want to give "as the Lord leads them" instead of tithing—but the Spirit would never lead you against His Word. The Word says to tithe.
Kelly: Notice tha Copeland has no biblical validation for the church because the church was never commadned by the Spirit to tithe.
Copeland: Tithing is not only an Old Covenant command, but also a New Testament blessing and privilege. Hebrews 7:8 says, "Here men that die receive tithes. But there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."
Kelly: Copeland ignores the context of Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18, 19. In 7:12 we are told that it was "necessary to change the law" of tithing first mentioned in 7:5. And 7:18 says that the "commandment going before" to tithe from 7:5 had been "annulled" because of its "weakness" and "unprofitableness"and because of the better new covenant of 7:19.
Copeland: In the Old Covenant, God's people would place their tithe—the first fruits of their increase—in a basket, present it to the high priest, and say to him, "I profess this day unto the Lord thy God, that I am come unto the country which the Lord sware unto our fathers for to give us" (Deuteronomy 26:2-3). They spoke their redemption.
Kelly: Manipulation! Read Deuteronomy 26:1-4. It is speaking of the firstfrutis and not the tithe. And the "firstfruits" are so very small that they would fit into a small handbasket.
Copeland: According to Colossians 1:13, we have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. As believers, we are living in the kingdom of God. We have entered into our inheritance in Jesus Christ and possess it in His Name. Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant.
Kelly: Copeland is mixing context to emphasize his false conclusion.
Copeland: When we take our tithes to our High Priest and speak our redemption, He receives them and then presents them to the Father (Hebrews 3:1, 7:8).
Kelly: This is classic Word of Faith out-of-context manipulation. There is no connection between Hebrews 3:1 and 7:8. Copeland says that our tithes must be with us when we approach God --sounds like a bribe. Are the poor to tithe and do without medication and essential food and shelter? Copeland thinks so.
Copeland: When we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance. Satan has no chance against us.
Kelly: We stand on the New Covenant which was sealed at Calvary and given to the Church after Calvary. It does not contain a single word commanding the church to tithe. NT giving is freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls. For many that means more than 10% and for many others means less than 10%. Satan has no chance with us even if we cannot afford to give 10%.
Copeland: Tithing the tithe rebukes the devourer!
Kelly: The context is that of food from Israel and the definition of food never changed for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Why?
Copeland: When we resist Satan in the Name of Jesus, God's rebuke is in action.
Kelly: This is true whether or not one can afford to give 10%. The poor widow had nothing to give after giving her last cent.
Copeland: God told the Israelites their words were stout against Him. They were confessing lack and want. It is important to speak our redemption in order for the tithe to produce.
Kelly: This is Word of Faith gibberish which ignores the context.
Copeland: Where you place you tithe depends on where you are receiving your spiritual food. God says to bring the tithes into the storehouse. That is where the food is—where a pastor, an evangelist, an apostle or some other ministry is in operation.
Kelly: Read Nehemiah 10:37b-38. The ordinary people were commnded to bring their tithes to the 48 (later 13) Levitical cities where the Levites and priests received them together per Numbers 35 and Joshua 20 and 21. Also read Nehemiah 13:5. The Temple only had two small storerooms to hold the tithe for those rotating a week at a time in service. Malachi 3:10 makes no sense unless it only refers to the dishonest priests of 1:13-14. The ekklesia-church is not a storehouse and no buildings existed for over 200 years after Calvary.
Copeland: When you give, you are not giving to an individual, but for the furtherance of the gospel. Since your tithe is God's money and since Jesus is the One who handles and receives it, you should always pray and let Him tell you where it should be put to work.
Kelly: Copeland, Hinn, the Crouches and al of the Word of Faith preachers will gladly receive your sacrifice and use it to buy airplanes and many properties in violation of Numbers 18.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Monday, August 17, 2009
Reply to Pastor Chad Reyes
Reply to Pastor Chad Reyes on Tithing
http://unitingthebodyofchrist.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithe.html edited
Chad: I believe that those who love God and God's people should tithe without a doubt.
Russ: That does not make it biblical. God never commanded New Covenant church to tithe.
Chad: In the Old Testament times their livelihood was their crops and cattle and other animals and so forth, so it was fit for them to give 10% of their livelihood in that time.
Russ: Mostly incorrect. Read Numbers 35; Joshua 20 and 21 and 1 Chronicles 23 to 26. They lived on loaned land in 48 cities and worked as farmers and herdsmen (of tithed animals). They also worked scores of non-land trades essential for their Temple maintenance and building.
Chad: This was so that the storehouse would be plentiful and well supplied for the people of God.
Russ: Read Nehemiah 10:37b-38. The people were normally commanded to bring their tithes to the Levitical cities where they were met by the Levites and priests where they lived. The Temple storehouse was actually only two store-rooms per Neh 13:5. Malachi 3:10 only makes sense if it refers to dishonest priests from Mal 1:13-14; 2:1-2 and 2:17 to 3:7.
Chad: It is also a sign that you are not consumed or "owned" by the natural things that have no eternal significance.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
Chad: Now our livelihood today is $$$$ money.
Russ: It is not food from inside Israel. It is increase from man's hands from defiled pagan lands. It is not a biblical tithe. It is freewill offerings.
Chad: Therefore, we should bring our tithe into the "storehouse" or "church building" that you are committed too.
Russ: Do you obey the entire tithing statute from Numbers 18? (1) the first whole Levitical tithe goes to the servants of the leaders which are ushers, deacon, choir, musicians and politicians per 18:21-24. (2) Only preachers are allowed inside the sanctuary. (3) The preachers only get one per cent per 18:225-28. (4) Tithe recipients are not allowed to own or inherit property. And (5) preachers are to kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. Tithe blessings are blessings from obeying the whole law --all 600 commands.
Chad: It my sincere advice for Christians of any particular ministry that they are giving to, to make sure that that ministry is committed to God and His infallible Word. This so that you can be confident that the "church building" or "storehouse" is acting in obedience to the word of God in how they handle the money that is brought in and that they are being good stewards of what they have received from the people of God in obedience to giving.
Russ: God cannot and does not bless the New Covenant Church because of obedience to abolished Old Covenant stipulations which were only made with national Israel (Heb 7:5, 12, 18).
NT giving principles after Calvary are freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls. See especially 2 Cor 8:12-14.Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://unitingthebodyofchrist.blogspot.com/2009/08/tithe.html edited
Chad: I believe that those who love God and God's people should tithe without a doubt.
Russ: That does not make it biblical. God never commanded New Covenant church to tithe.
Chad: In the Old Testament times their livelihood was their crops and cattle and other animals and so forth, so it was fit for them to give 10% of their livelihood in that time.
Russ: Mostly incorrect. Read Numbers 35; Joshua 20 and 21 and 1 Chronicles 23 to 26. They lived on loaned land in 48 cities and worked as farmers and herdsmen (of tithed animals). They also worked scores of non-land trades essential for their Temple maintenance and building.
Chad: This was so that the storehouse would be plentiful and well supplied for the people of God.
Russ: Read Nehemiah 10:37b-38. The people were normally commanded to bring their tithes to the Levitical cities where they were met by the Levites and priests where they lived. The Temple storehouse was actually only two store-rooms per Neh 13:5. Malachi 3:10 only makes sense if it refers to dishonest priests from Mal 1:13-14; 2:1-2 and 2:17 to 3:7.
Chad: It is also a sign that you are not consumed or "owned" by the natural things that have no eternal significance.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
Chad: Now our livelihood today is $$$$ money.
Russ: It is not food from inside Israel. It is increase from man's hands from defiled pagan lands. It is not a biblical tithe. It is freewill offerings.
Chad: Therefore, we should bring our tithe into the "storehouse" or "church building" that you are committed too.
Russ: Do you obey the entire tithing statute from Numbers 18? (1) the first whole Levitical tithe goes to the servants of the leaders which are ushers, deacon, choir, musicians and politicians per 18:21-24. (2) Only preachers are allowed inside the sanctuary. (3) The preachers only get one per cent per 18:225-28. (4) Tithe recipients are not allowed to own or inherit property. And (5) preachers are to kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. Tithe blessings are blessings from obeying the whole law --all 600 commands.
Chad: It my sincere advice for Christians of any particular ministry that they are giving to, to make sure that that ministry is committed to God and His infallible Word. This so that you can be confident that the "church building" or "storehouse" is acting in obedience to the word of God in how they handle the money that is brought in and that they are being good stewards of what they have received from the people of God in obedience to giving.
Russ: God cannot and does not bless the New Covenant Church because of obedience to abolished Old Covenant stipulations which were only made with national Israel (Heb 7:5, 12, 18).
NT giving principles after Calvary are freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls. See especially 2 Cor 8:12-14.Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Rebuttal of Dave Ramsey on Tithing
Rebuttal of Dave Ramsey by Russ Kelly
Dave's Advice on Tithing and Giving
http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/giving_5089.htmlc August 17, 2009 [edited]
Ramsey: Giving liberates the soul of the giver.
Kelly: Giving -- not tithing. I agree with this basic statement and practice it myself.
Ramsey: You never walk away feeling badly. Whether through a tithe, charitable contribution or gift to a friend in need, give away at least some of your money.
Kelly: I disagree. There are tens of thousands who have lived in the ghettos for generations who walk away after tithing with a relief that they have escaped God's curse one more time. They have faithfully tithed and played the lottery and remain in deep poverty, uneducated and unqualified to hold a job.
Ramsey: Not only does it generate good feelings, but it generates contentment.
Kelly: Tithing does not generate the ability to get and hold a job. Successful tithers are self motivated and would have become successful whether or not they tithed as many atheists and agnostics who do not tithe.
Ramsey: Remember, no one has ever become poor by giving.
Kelly: Go into ghetto neighborhoods and you will find the largest group of tithers in the world. They tithe to escape the curse and make their pastors much better off than themselves.
Ramsey: Is it acceptable to pause tithing in tough financial times?
Kelly: You, Dave Ramsey, do not biblically tithe and neither do your followers. True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
Ramsey: The Bible does not mention anything about "pausing" tithing.
Kelly: The Bible does not mention anything about tithing for the Church after Calvary under the New Covenant. The Bible does give more than ample reason to abolish (not pause) tithing. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id171.html.
Ramsey: Neither does it say that we will go to Hell if we do not tithe.
Kelly: Christians are under the imputed righteousness of Christ. They stand before God as holy, perfect, sinless and just.
Ramsey: The tithe, which is a scriptural mandate …
Kelly: It was only a basic, minimum starting place for food producers who lived inside Israel. It never applied to the vast majority of the population who had been pushed off the farms as owners within three-four generations.
Ramsey: So why does He ask us to give 10% to Him?
Kelly: God has never asked any Christian to give 10%. Even Paul could not have tithed because his increase came from pagan lands like ours. NT giving principles after Calvary are: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment and motivated by love for God and lost souls. That means more than 10% for many and less for many others who must first buy medicine and essential food and shelter.
Ramsey: Tithing was created for our benefit.
Kelly: There were at least three different OT tithes. The Levitical tithe was cold hard law and was created for the benefit of the Levites and priests which have been replaced by the priesthood of all believers. Why do you not obey the entire tithing statute of Numbers 18 (1) Tithes to servants of the priests; (2) priests only get 1%; (3) only preachers inside the sanctuary; (4) tithe-recipients must forfeit ownership of land and property and (5) preachers must kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
Ramsey: It is to teach us how to keep God first in our lives and how to be unselfish people.
Kelly: Wrong. Contrary to tithe-teachers, firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing per Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38. Firstfruits were very small token offerings while tithes were only counted after the full harvest of food or every tenth animal which were grown inside God's holy land of Israel.
Ramsey: Unselfish people make better husbands, wives, friends, relatives, employees, and employers.
Kelly: True, but that doesn't validate tithing.
Ramsey: God is trying to teach us how to prosper over time.
Kelly: Why does God prosper atheists, agnostics and Muslim Arab sheiks and not prosper most ghetto dwellers?
Ramsey: "Many" people have observed that after they stopped tithing, their finances seemed to get worse.
Kelly: How "many" who have faithfully tithed for years have not been blessed with overflowing blessings? How "many" who stopped did not suffer? Discuss both sides of the equation please.
Ramsey: In the Book of Malachi, God promises that if you do not rob Him of your tithing, He will rebuke your devourers and protect you.
Kelly: Malachi was only addressed to Old Covenant Israelites who had just renewed the covenant conditions in Nehemiah 10:29 and Malachi 4:4. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. God cannot and does not bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to one of over 600 commandments of the Old Covenant. That is very very poor hermeneutics (principles of interpretation). Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews and us Gentiles were never under that law in any manner.
Ramsey: If you cannot live off 90% of your income, then you cannot live off 100%. It does not require a miracle for you to get through the month.
Kelly: Tell that to welfare recipients who are doing without pan pills in order to tithe their government checks to their much wealthier church leaders. I have witnessed this.
Ramsey: … if you tithe, do it out of love for God, not guilt.
Kelly: The first whole OT Levitical tithe was cold hard law and must be given whether out of joy or not. You want to keep the one command of tithing from the 600 OT laws and drop the penalty for disobedience. Again, that is poor hermeneutics.
Ramsey: I do not beat people up for not tithing because Jesus certainly did not, but let me encourage you to keep tithing.
Kelly: Why? There is no New Covenant blessings attached to tithing. The post Calvary blessings come from different NT principles. Jesus never addressed tithing outside of "matters of the law" per Mt 23:23. He could not have told his Gentiles disciples to tithe because it was illegal.
I encourage Dave Ramsey to dialog with me on a full scale detailed discussion of tithing.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Dave's Advice on Tithing and Giving
http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/cms/giving_5089.htmlc August 17, 2009 [edited]
Ramsey: Giving liberates the soul of the giver.
Kelly: Giving -- not tithing. I agree with this basic statement and practice it myself.
Ramsey: You never walk away feeling badly. Whether through a tithe, charitable contribution or gift to a friend in need, give away at least some of your money.
Kelly: I disagree. There are tens of thousands who have lived in the ghettos for generations who walk away after tithing with a relief that they have escaped God's curse one more time. They have faithfully tithed and played the lottery and remain in deep poverty, uneducated and unqualified to hold a job.
Ramsey: Not only does it generate good feelings, but it generates contentment.
Kelly: Tithing does not generate the ability to get and hold a job. Successful tithers are self motivated and would have become successful whether or not they tithed as many atheists and agnostics who do not tithe.
Ramsey: Remember, no one has ever become poor by giving.
Kelly: Go into ghetto neighborhoods and you will find the largest group of tithers in the world. They tithe to escape the curse and make their pastors much better off than themselves.
Ramsey: Is it acceptable to pause tithing in tough financial times?
Kelly: You, Dave Ramsey, do not biblically tithe and neither do your followers. True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
Ramsey: The Bible does not mention anything about "pausing" tithing.
Kelly: The Bible does not mention anything about tithing for the Church after Calvary under the New Covenant. The Bible does give more than ample reason to abolish (not pause) tithing. See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id171.html.
Ramsey: Neither does it say that we will go to Hell if we do not tithe.
Kelly: Christians are under the imputed righteousness of Christ. They stand before God as holy, perfect, sinless and just.
Ramsey: The tithe, which is a scriptural mandate …
Kelly: It was only a basic, minimum starting place for food producers who lived inside Israel. It never applied to the vast majority of the population who had been pushed off the farms as owners within three-four generations.
Ramsey: So why does He ask us to give 10% to Him?
Kelly: God has never asked any Christian to give 10%. Even Paul could not have tithed because his increase came from pagan lands like ours. NT giving principles after Calvary are: freewill, generous, sacrificial, joyful, not by commandment and motivated by love for God and lost souls. That means more than 10% for many and less for many others who must first buy medicine and essential food and shelter.
Ramsey: Tithing was created for our benefit.
Kelly: There were at least three different OT tithes. The Levitical tithe was cold hard law and was created for the benefit of the Levites and priests which have been replaced by the priesthood of all believers. Why do you not obey the entire tithing statute of Numbers 18 (1) Tithes to servants of the priests; (2) priests only get 1%; (3) only preachers inside the sanctuary; (4) tithe-recipients must forfeit ownership of land and property and (5) preachers must kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
Ramsey: It is to teach us how to keep God first in our lives and how to be unselfish people.
Kelly: Wrong. Contrary to tithe-teachers, firstfruits and tithes were never the same thing per Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-38. Firstfruits were very small token offerings while tithes were only counted after the full harvest of food or every tenth animal which were grown inside God's holy land of Israel.
Ramsey: Unselfish people make better husbands, wives, friends, relatives, employees, and employers.
Kelly: True, but that doesn't validate tithing.
Ramsey: God is trying to teach us how to prosper over time.
Kelly: Why does God prosper atheists, agnostics and Muslim Arab sheiks and not prosper most ghetto dwellers?
Ramsey: "Many" people have observed that after they stopped tithing, their finances seemed to get worse.
Kelly: How "many" who have faithfully tithed for years have not been blessed with overflowing blessings? How "many" who stopped did not suffer? Discuss both sides of the equation please.
Ramsey: In the Book of Malachi, God promises that if you do not rob Him of your tithing, He will rebuke your devourers and protect you.
Kelly: Malachi was only addressed to Old Covenant Israelites who had just renewed the covenant conditions in Nehemiah 10:29 and Malachi 4:4. The whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. God cannot and does not bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to one of over 600 commandments of the Old Covenant. That is very very poor hermeneutics (principles of interpretation). Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews and us Gentiles were never under that law in any manner.
Ramsey: If you cannot live off 90% of your income, then you cannot live off 100%. It does not require a miracle for you to get through the month.
Kelly: Tell that to welfare recipients who are doing without pan pills in order to tithe their government checks to their much wealthier church leaders. I have witnessed this.
Ramsey: … if you tithe, do it out of love for God, not guilt.
Kelly: The first whole OT Levitical tithe was cold hard law and must be given whether out of joy or not. You want to keep the one command of tithing from the 600 OT laws and drop the penalty for disobedience. Again, that is poor hermeneutics.
Ramsey: I do not beat people up for not tithing because Jesus certainly did not, but let me encourage you to keep tithing.
Kelly: Why? There is no New Covenant blessings attached to tithing. The post Calvary blessings come from different NT principles. Jesus never addressed tithing outside of "matters of the law" per Mt 23:23. He could not have told his Gentiles disciples to tithe because it was illegal.
I encourage Dave Ramsey to dialog with me on a full scale detailed discussion of tithing.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Muslims KIll Each Other
What will happen to the world after all non-Muslims have been killed? Will they kill each other?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539527,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539527,00.html
Sunday, August 16, 2009
Reply to Pastor Darryl Dash
Reply to Pastor Darryl Dash
No Stealing (Exodus 20:15)
http://www.dashsermons.com/2009/08/no-stealing-exodus-2015/ edited
Dash: Paul emphasized that the law still has a role for us who believe we’re saved by what Christ has done for us. At the end of Romans 3 Paul said, “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31).
Kelly: Paul was not referring to the Ten Commandments because he had only quoted Psalms and Isaiah in Romans 3:1-20. He used the word "law" to mean "God's revelation of his character to reveal sin." To the Jews that meant the entire Old Testament revelation. To the Gentiles that mean creation, conscience and nature per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16.
Dash: Paul says that we can’t be saved by our obedience to the law. We can only be saved through faith in Christ, who has kept the law perfectly and died for those who haven’t.
Kelly: The Old and New Covenant use the word "law" to refer to it as an indivisible whole of commandments, statutes and judgments. Paul taught that believers are "dead to law" in Romans 7:4 and are cannot be condemned because of the new "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" per Romans 8:1-2. The old law ended at Calvary as denoted by the ripping of the veil. Hebrews 8:13 says it has "vanished."
Dash: But then Paul says that we still uphold the norms of the law. We do this through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Kelly: That which was eternal and moral in the Old Covenant (only for national Israel) has been repeated after Calvary for the Church in terms of grace and faith. This is the law of love formerly revealed also in creation, nature and conscience.
Dash: We keep these commandments for a number of reasons, but perhaps the biggest reason is gratitude for what God has accomplished for us.
Kelly: If you are referring to the Ten Commandments, they were never given to anybody other than national Israel per Ex 19:5-6. We do not keep Saturday Sabbath; we do not own slaves and let them rest on the Sabbath and we do not promise that our children will live long in the land of Israel (eretz). Like the word "law," your use of the word "commandments" is confusing.
Dash: When the people of Israel understood that God delivered them out of bondage in Egypt, obedience to his commands is the only response that makes sense.
Kelly: Yes, and God commanded Israel NOT to share its covenant with other nations. The "Thou shalt nots" of the Old Covenant have been replaced by obedience in the New Covenant because of our new creation in Christ.
Dash: These commands, which look oppressive at first, are actually a charter of freedom.
Kelly: What commands? Only the Ten Commandments? Or the whole Pentateuch? Or what? The law commanded Hebrews to kill disobedient children and fornicators. It commanded them not to wear clothing of mixed cloths, etc, etc, etc. It was very difficult in order to remind Israel that they had been set apart from the Gentile world which did not have the law.
Dash: As Paul said to the Ephesians, “Those who have been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need” (Ephesians 4:28).
Kelly: This is not because they were consciously keeping the Ten Commandments or the whole law of the Pentateuch. It is because they are new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to John 16:8-9 Jesus Himself is the new standard of righteousness for the believer.
Dash: This gets tricky, because tithes were part of the old covenant with Israel.
Kelly: Why do you admit this truth concerning tithing and not admit it concerning the Ten Commandments or the whole law?
Dash: The New Testament doesn’t require the tithe, but it has lots to say about giving.
Kelly: Yes, but absolutely nothing to say about the church being required to tithe. That is because both the temple and the OT priesthood have been replaced by the priesthood of every believer. Anybody who accepts tithes under the New Covenant is STEALING. He is accepting sustenance which only belonged to Levites and Aaronic priests. According to Numbers 18 he should also be required to forfeit property ownership and to kill anybody else who dared to worship God directly.
Dash: C.S. Lewis said, “I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare.”
Kelly: C. S. Lewis was right. According to the "equality principle" of 2nd Cor 8:12-14 many should give much more than 10% but others may be giving sacrificially even though less than 10%.
Dash: Theologian John Frame suggests that the cheerful giving of the New Testament cannot be much less than the Old Testament regular tithe of 10%. Don’t rob God by the amount that you give.
Kelly: Theologian Frame has fallen for the false assumption that everybody in the OT began their level of giving at ten per cent. In reality only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Therefore the conclusion is based on a false assumption and is wrong.
I encourage you to enter into a full discussion of tithing to reform the Church.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
No Stealing (Exodus 20:15)
http://www.dashsermons.com/2009/08/no-stealing-exodus-2015/ edited
Dash: Paul emphasized that the law still has a role for us who believe we’re saved by what Christ has done for us. At the end of Romans 3 Paul said, “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law” (Romans 3:31).
Kelly: Paul was not referring to the Ten Commandments because he had only quoted Psalms and Isaiah in Romans 3:1-20. He used the word "law" to mean "God's revelation of his character to reveal sin." To the Jews that meant the entire Old Testament revelation. To the Gentiles that mean creation, conscience and nature per Romans 1:18-20 and 2:14-16.
Dash: Paul says that we can’t be saved by our obedience to the law. We can only be saved through faith in Christ, who has kept the law perfectly and died for those who haven’t.
Kelly: The Old and New Covenant use the word "law" to refer to it as an indivisible whole of commandments, statutes and judgments. Paul taught that believers are "dead to law" in Romans 7:4 and are cannot be condemned because of the new "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" per Romans 8:1-2. The old law ended at Calvary as denoted by the ripping of the veil. Hebrews 8:13 says it has "vanished."
Dash: But then Paul says that we still uphold the norms of the law. We do this through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Kelly: That which was eternal and moral in the Old Covenant (only for national Israel) has been repeated after Calvary for the Church in terms of grace and faith. This is the law of love formerly revealed also in creation, nature and conscience.
Dash: We keep these commandments for a number of reasons, but perhaps the biggest reason is gratitude for what God has accomplished for us.
Kelly: If you are referring to the Ten Commandments, they were never given to anybody other than national Israel per Ex 19:5-6. We do not keep Saturday Sabbath; we do not own slaves and let them rest on the Sabbath and we do not promise that our children will live long in the land of Israel (eretz). Like the word "law," your use of the word "commandments" is confusing.
Dash: When the people of Israel understood that God delivered them out of bondage in Egypt, obedience to his commands is the only response that makes sense.
Kelly: Yes, and God commanded Israel NOT to share its covenant with other nations. The "Thou shalt nots" of the Old Covenant have been replaced by obedience in the New Covenant because of our new creation in Christ.
Dash: These commands, which look oppressive at first, are actually a charter of freedom.
Kelly: What commands? Only the Ten Commandments? Or the whole Pentateuch? Or what? The law commanded Hebrews to kill disobedient children and fornicators. It commanded them not to wear clothing of mixed cloths, etc, etc, etc. It was very difficult in order to remind Israel that they had been set apart from the Gentile world which did not have the law.
Dash: As Paul said to the Ephesians, “Those who have been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need” (Ephesians 4:28).
Kelly: This is not because they were consciously keeping the Ten Commandments or the whole law of the Pentateuch. It is because they are new creations indwelt by the Holy Spirit. According to John 16:8-9 Jesus Himself is the new standard of righteousness for the believer.
Dash: This gets tricky, because tithes were part of the old covenant with Israel.
Kelly: Why do you admit this truth concerning tithing and not admit it concerning the Ten Commandments or the whole law?
Dash: The New Testament doesn’t require the tithe, but it has lots to say about giving.
Kelly: Yes, but absolutely nothing to say about the church being required to tithe. That is because both the temple and the OT priesthood have been replaced by the priesthood of every believer. Anybody who accepts tithes under the New Covenant is STEALING. He is accepting sustenance which only belonged to Levites and Aaronic priests. According to Numbers 18 he should also be required to forfeit property ownership and to kill anybody else who dared to worship God directly.
Dash: C.S. Lewis said, “I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare.”
Kelly: C. S. Lewis was right. According to the "equality principle" of 2nd Cor 8:12-14 many should give much more than 10% but others may be giving sacrificially even though less than 10%.
Dash: Theologian John Frame suggests that the cheerful giving of the New Testament cannot be much less than the Old Testament regular tithe of 10%. Don’t rob God by the amount that you give.
Kelly: Theologian Frame has fallen for the false assumption that everybody in the OT began their level of giving at ten per cent. In reality only food producers who lived inside Israel qualified as tithe-payers. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Therefore the conclusion is based on a false assumption and is wrong.
I encourage you to enter into a full discussion of tithing to reform the Church.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Saturday, August 15, 2009
Reply to Love Me and Receive Your Inheritance
Reply to Love Me and Receive Your Inheritance of Abundance
http://manifestingabundance.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/day-31-love-me-and-receive-your-inheritance-of-abundance-malachi-310-11/ [edited]
God cannot and does not bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to Old Covenant conditional promises made only to national Israel.
True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God's hand. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money is never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualifry as tithe payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. They gave freewill offerings.
You said: "if we trust in the relationship we have developed with God, then we shall experience a fruitful harvest of abundance."
Reply: You have added a condition to Malachi 3:10 to explain why most "tithers" are not blessed with overflowing blessings. Actually there were hundreds of conditions. The whole law was a test -- not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Galatisns 3:10-13 clearly supercedes Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews who were under the Law. We Gentiles were never under the law and God never commanded the Church to tithe in terms of the New Covenant after Calvary.
You said: Les Brown -- how he empowered himself by becoming responsible for his success.
Reply: Motivation and education empowers for success even for atheists and non-tithers. Tithing is not the key to success. If it were thken ten of thousands would have escaped the ghettos long ago because they faithfully tithe.
NT giving is primarily sacrificial. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for others. The "equality" principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-14 works. See www.tithing-russkelly.com for much more. I encourge detail dialog.
http://manifestingabundance.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/day-31-love-me-and-receive-your-inheritance-of-abundance-malachi-310-11/ [edited]
God cannot and does not bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to Old Covenant conditional promises made only to national Israel.
True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel which had been miraculously increased by God's hand. Although money was common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money is never included in the 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualifry as tithe payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. They gave freewill offerings.
You said: "if we trust in the relationship we have developed with God, then we shall experience a fruitful harvest of abundance."
Reply: You have added a condition to Malachi 3:10 to explain why most "tithers" are not blessed with overflowing blessings. Actually there were hundreds of conditions. The whole law was a test -- not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Galatisns 3:10-13 clearly supercedes Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews who were under the Law. We Gentiles were never under the law and God never commanded the Church to tithe in terms of the New Covenant after Calvary.
You said: Les Brown -- how he empowered himself by becoming responsible for his success.
Reply: Motivation and education empowers for success even for atheists and non-tithers. Tithing is not the key to success. If it were thken ten of thousands would have escaped the ghettos long ago because they faithfully tithe.
NT giving is primarily sacrificial. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for others. The "equality" principle of 2nd Cor 8:12-14 works. See www.tithing-russkelly.com for much more. I encourge detail dialog.
Reply to Thoughts, Fleecing the Flock
Rebuttal to Thoughts, Fleecing the Flock, Aug 14, 2009
http://michaelskewes.blogspot.com/2009/08/fleecing-flock-through-tithes-offerings.html
Although your story is interesting and very informative, it is wrong to compare sheep-crutching to tithing.
(1) True biblical tithes were always only food miraculously increased by God from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
(2) Tithes were not the same thing as first fruits. Tithes were the tenth after full harvest or every tenth animal -- not necessarily the best animal per Lev 27:30-34. First fruits were a very small token offering which could be carried in a small hand basket to the Temple to be consumed there per Deut 26:1-4. The firstborn was a firstfruit, not the tenth-born per Neh 10:35-38.
(3) Tithing was only given to Old Covenant Israel to provide for the Levites and temple priests who forfeited inheritance. It is stealing to receive tithes under one pretense and also own and inherit property under another pretense. Numbers 18 is the statute of tithing and none of its rules are followed today. A) Tithes are not given to servants to the pastors. B) Servants do not give one tenth of their tithes to the pastor. C) Pastors are not the only ones allowed inside the sanctuary, D) Pastors still own property. E) Pastors do not kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. Both the temple and the priesthood have been replaced, not by pastors, but by believer-priests (compare Ex 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10.
(4) NT giving to the Church after Calvary is primarily sacrificial. That means more than 10% for many and less for many others. It equals out per 2 Cor 8:12-14. For much more see www.tithing-russkelly.com. I would appreciate extended dialog.
http://michaelskewes.blogspot.com/2009/08/fleecing-flock-through-tithes-offerings.html
Although your story is interesting and very informative, it is wrong to compare sheep-crutching to tithing.
(1) True biblical tithes were always only food miraculously increased by God from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel.
(2) Tithes were not the same thing as first fruits. Tithes were the tenth after full harvest or every tenth animal -- not necessarily the best animal per Lev 27:30-34. First fruits were a very small token offering which could be carried in a small hand basket to the Temple to be consumed there per Deut 26:1-4. The firstborn was a firstfruit, not the tenth-born per Neh 10:35-38.
(3) Tithing was only given to Old Covenant Israel to provide for the Levites and temple priests who forfeited inheritance. It is stealing to receive tithes under one pretense and also own and inherit property under another pretense. Numbers 18 is the statute of tithing and none of its rules are followed today. A) Tithes are not given to servants to the pastors. B) Servants do not give one tenth of their tithes to the pastor. C) Pastors are not the only ones allowed inside the sanctuary, D) Pastors still own property. E) Pastors do not kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. Both the temple and the priesthood have been replaced, not by pastors, but by believer-priests (compare Ex 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10.
(4) NT giving to the Church after Calvary is primarily sacrificial. That means more than 10% for many and less for many others. It equals out per 2 Cor 8:12-14. For much more see www.tithing-russkelly.com. I would appreciate extended dialog.
Friday, August 14, 2009
Reply to Pastor Jim Woflcale
ALL I WANT IS YOU, Jim Wolfcale, Chesapeake, Va
http://jwolfcale.blogspot.com/2009/08/one-of-my-favorite-things-to-teach-on.html
Jim: I hunger for the truth; I wanna know more about Jesus
Russ: According to 2 Cor 3:10-18 the OT law has zero glory when compared to the glory of the New Covenant. Preaching law is preaching with a veil over your head. We are no longer commanded to kill our disobedient children per Exodus 21:15, 17 either. Only by knowing more and more about Jesus do we draw near to his image.
Jim: The 90 Tithe Challenge
One of my favorite things to teach on has always been financial stewardship.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Jesus only mentioned tithing three times and each time he condemned legalistic tithe-teachers while the law was still in full force. He never commanded tithing to the Gentiles because it would have been illegal.
Jim: His instructions and promises don't change with the stock market.
Russ: God does not change but he honors his different covenant conditions made with different peoples. Nothing about tithing under the Old Covenant has been brought forward to the church from the tithing statute of Numbers 18. (1) tithes are not given to the servants of the priests, (2) tithe-recipients are nor forbidden to own and inherit property, (3) preachers are not the only ones allowed into the sanctuary and (4) preachers are not commanded to kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. You cannot honestly pick and choose only that which you want to teach and ignore the rest. Jim: Like many of you, my family has taken a financial hit during this financial crisis …
Russ: Why? I though you were guaranteed overflowing blessings from Malachi 3:10. Your own testimony proves that the promises are not working in the New Covenant.
Jim: … but it doesn't effect my giving to God because my wife and I have done some advance planning.
Russ: You are probably well educated, motivated and plan ahead. There are tens of thousands in the ghettos who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations but remain in deep poverty. Why does tithing not work for them?
Jim: It's imperative that each of us take the time to plan our finances. If you don't have a plan to succeed you're planning to fail and I know that's not what anyone wants to do.
Russ: Really. Again you are admitting that success depends more on motivation and planning than on tithing. People who do that will most likely succeed whether they tithe or nor. You do not believe your own propaganda.
Jim: This Sunday I'm introducing a 90 Tithe Challenge to our church. We're going to challenge our people that during the next 90 days they will put God to the test as He invites us to do in Malachi 3:10.
Russ: Spend a week of the 90 days to read my web site and try to honestly reconcile what God's Word says with what you are teaching. Try to find even one major church historian who says that the early church taught tithing for the first 300 years. Actually it did not become legal until AD777 and was not widely taught in the USA until the 1890s.
Jim: You might have heard this but this is the only place in the Bible where God invites us to test Him. Pretty cool huh!? Actually, it's more than pretty cool. It's flat out AWESOME!
Russ: That is a lie! Read all of Deuteronomy 28 to 30; Nehemiah 10:29; Malachi 4:4 and Galatians 3:10-13. The whole law was a test, not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. You cannot demand God's blessings because of obedience to only one of over 600 annulled laws. Hebrews 7:18 clearly annuls tithing from 7:5 and 7u:12.
What about the curse of Malachi. How can you teach justification and the imputed righteousness of Christ and also that a believer can be cursed?
God does not and cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to Old Covenant conditional promises which have not been repeated to the Church after Calvary. NT giving is primarily sacrificial. Preach that. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for many others.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://jwolfcale.blogspot.com/2009/08/one-of-my-favorite-things-to-teach-on.html
Jim: I hunger for the truth; I wanna know more about Jesus
Russ: According to 2 Cor 3:10-18 the OT law has zero glory when compared to the glory of the New Covenant. Preaching law is preaching with a veil over your head. We are no longer commanded to kill our disobedient children per Exodus 21:15, 17 either. Only by knowing more and more about Jesus do we draw near to his image.
Jim: The 90 Tithe Challenge
One of my favorite things to teach on has always been financial stewardship.
Russ: True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was common even in Genesis, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and neither did the poor nor those who lived outside Israel. Jesus only mentioned tithing three times and each time he condemned legalistic tithe-teachers while the law was still in full force. He never commanded tithing to the Gentiles because it would have been illegal.
Jim: His instructions and promises don't change with the stock market.
Russ: God does not change but he honors his different covenant conditions made with different peoples. Nothing about tithing under the Old Covenant has been brought forward to the church from the tithing statute of Numbers 18. (1) tithes are not given to the servants of the priests, (2) tithe-recipients are nor forbidden to own and inherit property, (3) preachers are not the only ones allowed into the sanctuary and (4) preachers are not commanded to kill anybody who dares to worship God directly. You cannot honestly pick and choose only that which you want to teach and ignore the rest. Jim: Like many of you, my family has taken a financial hit during this financial crisis …
Russ: Why? I though you were guaranteed overflowing blessings from Malachi 3:10. Your own testimony proves that the promises are not working in the New Covenant.
Jim: … but it doesn't effect my giving to God because my wife and I have done some advance planning.
Russ: You are probably well educated, motivated and plan ahead. There are tens of thousands in the ghettos who have been faithfully "tithing" for generations but remain in deep poverty. Why does tithing not work for them?
Jim: It's imperative that each of us take the time to plan our finances. If you don't have a plan to succeed you're planning to fail and I know that's not what anyone wants to do.
Russ: Really. Again you are admitting that success depends more on motivation and planning than on tithing. People who do that will most likely succeed whether they tithe or nor. You do not believe your own propaganda.
Jim: This Sunday I'm introducing a 90 Tithe Challenge to our church. We're going to challenge our people that during the next 90 days they will put God to the test as He invites us to do in Malachi 3:10.
Russ: Spend a week of the 90 days to read my web site and try to honestly reconcile what God's Word says with what you are teaching. Try to find even one major church historian who says that the early church taught tithing for the first 300 years. Actually it did not become legal until AD777 and was not widely taught in the USA until the 1890s.
Jim: You might have heard this but this is the only place in the Bible where God invites us to test Him. Pretty cool huh!? Actually, it's more than pretty cool. It's flat out AWESOME!
Russ: That is a lie! Read all of Deuteronomy 28 to 30; Nehemiah 10:29; Malachi 4:4 and Galatians 3:10-13. The whole law was a test, not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. You cannot demand God's blessings because of obedience to only one of over 600 annulled laws. Hebrews 7:18 clearly annuls tithing from 7:5 and 7u:12.
What about the curse of Malachi. How can you teach justification and the imputed righteousness of Christ and also that a believer can be cursed?
God does not and cannot bless New Covenant believers because of their obedience to Old Covenant conditional promises which have not been repeated to the Church after Calvary. NT giving is primarily sacrificial. Preach that. That means much more than 10% for many and much less for many others.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
Rebuttal of EFinance
Rebuttal of eChristian Finance by Russell Kelly, PHD
http://www.echristianfinance.com/2009/07/remebering-the-tithes/
Remembering the Tithes [EDITED]
EFINANCE: The first tithe was the Levitical tithe, which is what we most commonly think of when we discuss tithing. This was to be a 10% tithe of all your increase during the year.
Kelly: The Levites who received the first whole tithe were NOT priests. They were the carpenters, weavers, sculptors (Num 3). They were the guards, builders, bakers, treasurers and political leaders (1 Chron 23 to 26). Why don't you point this out? What are you hiding?
EFINANCE: “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy unto the Lord.” (Lev. 27:30)
“Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.” (Deut. 14:22)
Kelly: How can you possibly quote these texts and then call the tithe "income" and/or money? Although money was very common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
EFINANCE: “And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.” (Num. 18:21) [Servants to the priests were not allowed inside the sanctuary tent.]
Kelly: How can you possibly quote this text and not see that biblical tithes could only come from INSIDE ISREAL. Therefore, if Paul were a food producer in Gentile territory, he could not legally tithe. And neither can anybody else outside Israel.
EFINANCE: This tithe was designed to support the work of the local ministry/church.
Kelly: You cannot legitimately include the word "church" because tithing was never commanded to the church after Calvary during the New Covenant.
EFINANCE: The priests and Levites did not receive a portion of the inheritance, instead God ordained this Levitical tithe to provide for the needs of the priests and for the daily operations of the tabernacle/temple.
Kelly: Please tell me why so-called "tithe-recipients" in the church are allowed to receive tithes and still own and inherit property. It seems like you pick and choose what is convenient and most profitable.
EFINANCE: In this current age, the Levitical tithe is used for the day-to-day operations of the church and salaries of the church staff, etc.
Kelly: This current age has no Temple, no Levites and no Aaronic priests to give tithes of food from inside Israel. Every believer is a priest with direct access to God.
EFINANCE: Now some radical proponents of tithing take only the scriptures related to the rejoicing tithe and use it to justify paying tithes to themselves. That’s not what the scripture says and these people conveniently overlook the scriptures regarding the other two tithes.
Kelly: There is only one in thousands who teaches such. He is not part of the larger pro-grace-giving community. (Rick Johnson) Even then he is far more correct than you are.
EFINANCE: God didn’t give the children of Israel three tithing options and just let them pick whichever one best fitted their situation. None of the tithes were optional! God’s law required all of them to be followed.
Kelly: Almost all of your pro-tithing community ignores the 2nd festival tithe and the 3rd poor tithe. Preach to them. Add the 10% tithe to the king (Rome) and at lest 10% to Herod (local ruler) and you are up to 43% plus taxes on roads, bridges, etc from Jesus' day.
EFINANCE: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse” (Mal. 3:10)
Kelly: Have you ever read Nehemiah 10:37b? The ordinary people were commanded to bring their tithes, not to the Temple, but to the Levitical cities where 98% of those who needed them for food stayed most of the time. Malachi 3:10 makes no sense unless it only refers to the Levites and priests who had been commanded to bring tithes to the temple per Neh 10:38.
EFINANCE: So the Law of Moses identified three separate tithes that we are to be following.
Kelly: "WE" are NOT Old Covenant Israel. "WE" did not ask God to curse us for not tithing like Old Covenant Israel did in Neh 10:29. "WE" are not commanded to keep the whole law of Moses as in Malachi 4:4. "WE" do not kill our disobedient children per Ex 21:15, 17.
EFINANCE: However, this principle of tithing was established by God long before the Law of Moses (Gen. 14:20).
Kelly: "THIS" principle of tithing in Malachi and the Law is NOT the same as the principle followed by Abraham. Abraham's tithe was not a holy tithe from a holy land by a holy people under a holy covenant. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes was commanded under the Law nor is obeyed by any Christian church today. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not holy tithes, (4) he kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
EFINANCE: When Jesus came to this earth, not only did he not do away with it, but he commended its practice (Matt. 23:23).
Kelly: Jesus could not have abolished tithing without sinning because the Law was still in full force before Calvary. He came under the law in order to redeem those under the law and lived a sinless law-abiding life. He was rebuking tithe-paying hypocrites to adding garden spices to the law and making it a burden. He was discussing "matters of the law."
EFINANCE: Paying tithes (plural) is a practice that we all need to be following. This involves giving more than just 10% each year. An individual who is bringing “all the tithes into the storehouse” should be giving over 13% each year for the Levitical and poor tithes. In addition, they should also be setting aside 10% for the rejoicing tithe to attend fellowship meetings. Only then are you truly following the principle of tithing.
Kelly: O. K. (1) The first tithe of food from inside Israel should be brought to the non-existent Levitical cities to feed the non-existent Levites and priests under the non-existent Old Covenant per Neh 10:37b. The non-existent Levites and priests will bring what they need to the non-existent temple so non-existent animal sacrifices can be performed. (2) The second tithe of food from inside Israel can be brought to the streets of Jerusalem as commanded and eaten in a giant potluck three times a year to celebrate the non-existent Old Covenant festivals. (3) The third tithe of food from inside Israel can be kept in the towns and homes of individual believers for the poor so the government can lower our taxes and stop caring for the poor.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://www.echristianfinance.com/2009/07/remebering-the-tithes/
Remembering the Tithes [EDITED]
EFINANCE: The first tithe was the Levitical tithe, which is what we most commonly think of when we discuss tithing. This was to be a 10% tithe of all your increase during the year.
Kelly: The Levites who received the first whole tithe were NOT priests. They were the carpenters, weavers, sculptors (Num 3). They were the guards, builders, bakers, treasurers and political leaders (1 Chron 23 to 26). Why don't you point this out? What are you hiding?
EFINANCE: “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy unto the Lord.” (Lev. 27:30)
“Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.” (Deut. 14:22)
Kelly: How can you possibly quote these texts and then call the tithe "income" and/or money? Although money was very common even in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
EFINANCE: “And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.” (Num. 18:21) [Servants to the priests were not allowed inside the sanctuary tent.]
Kelly: How can you possibly quote this text and not see that biblical tithes could only come from INSIDE ISREAL. Therefore, if Paul were a food producer in Gentile territory, he could not legally tithe. And neither can anybody else outside Israel.
EFINANCE: This tithe was designed to support the work of the local ministry/church.
Kelly: You cannot legitimately include the word "church" because tithing was never commanded to the church after Calvary during the New Covenant.
EFINANCE: The priests and Levites did not receive a portion of the inheritance, instead God ordained this Levitical tithe to provide for the needs of the priests and for the daily operations of the tabernacle/temple.
Kelly: Please tell me why so-called "tithe-recipients" in the church are allowed to receive tithes and still own and inherit property. It seems like you pick and choose what is convenient and most profitable.
EFINANCE: In this current age, the Levitical tithe is used for the day-to-day operations of the church and salaries of the church staff, etc.
Kelly: This current age has no Temple, no Levites and no Aaronic priests to give tithes of food from inside Israel. Every believer is a priest with direct access to God.
EFINANCE: Now some radical proponents of tithing take only the scriptures related to the rejoicing tithe and use it to justify paying tithes to themselves. That’s not what the scripture says and these people conveniently overlook the scriptures regarding the other two tithes.
Kelly: There is only one in thousands who teaches such. He is not part of the larger pro-grace-giving community. (Rick Johnson) Even then he is far more correct than you are.
EFINANCE: God didn’t give the children of Israel three tithing options and just let them pick whichever one best fitted their situation. None of the tithes were optional! God’s law required all of them to be followed.
Kelly: Almost all of your pro-tithing community ignores the 2nd festival tithe and the 3rd poor tithe. Preach to them. Add the 10% tithe to the king (Rome) and at lest 10% to Herod (local ruler) and you are up to 43% plus taxes on roads, bridges, etc from Jesus' day.
EFINANCE: “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse” (Mal. 3:10)
Kelly: Have you ever read Nehemiah 10:37b? The ordinary people were commanded to bring their tithes, not to the Temple, but to the Levitical cities where 98% of those who needed them for food stayed most of the time. Malachi 3:10 makes no sense unless it only refers to the Levites and priests who had been commanded to bring tithes to the temple per Neh 10:38.
EFINANCE: So the Law of Moses identified three separate tithes that we are to be following.
Kelly: "WE" are NOT Old Covenant Israel. "WE" did not ask God to curse us for not tithing like Old Covenant Israel did in Neh 10:29. "WE" are not commanded to keep the whole law of Moses as in Malachi 4:4. "WE" do not kill our disobedient children per Ex 21:15, 17.
EFINANCE: However, this principle of tithing was established by God long before the Law of Moses (Gen. 14:20).
Kelly: "THIS" principle of tithing in Malachi and the Law is NOT the same as the principle followed by Abraham. Abraham's tithe was not a holy tithe from a holy land by a holy people under a holy covenant. Nothing Abraham did concerning tithes was commanded under the Law nor is obeyed by any Christian church today. (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) only once, (3) not holy tithes, (4) he kept nothing and (5) gave the 90% to the king of Sodom.
EFINANCE: When Jesus came to this earth, not only did he not do away with it, but he commended its practice (Matt. 23:23).
Kelly: Jesus could not have abolished tithing without sinning because the Law was still in full force before Calvary. He came under the law in order to redeem those under the law and lived a sinless law-abiding life. He was rebuking tithe-paying hypocrites to adding garden spices to the law and making it a burden. He was discussing "matters of the law."
EFINANCE: Paying tithes (plural) is a practice that we all need to be following. This involves giving more than just 10% each year. An individual who is bringing “all the tithes into the storehouse” should be giving over 13% each year for the Levitical and poor tithes. In addition, they should also be setting aside 10% for the rejoicing tithe to attend fellowship meetings. Only then are you truly following the principle of tithing.
Kelly: O. K. (1) The first tithe of food from inside Israel should be brought to the non-existent Levitical cities to feed the non-existent Levites and priests under the non-existent Old Covenant per Neh 10:37b. The non-existent Levites and priests will bring what they need to the non-existent temple so non-existent animal sacrifices can be performed. (2) The second tithe of food from inside Israel can be brought to the streets of Jerusalem as commanded and eaten in a giant potluck three times a year to celebrate the non-existent Old Covenant festivals. (3) The third tithe of food from inside Israel can be kept in the towns and homes of individual believers for the poor so the government can lower our taxes and stop caring for the poor.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Monday, August 10, 2009
Rebuttal to eFinacne
eChristian Finance, Aug 10, 2009
http://www.echristianfinance.com/2009/08/a-defense-of-tithing/
Rebuttal of eChristian Finance by Russell E Kellyk
A Defense of Tithing
Nameless: Since tithing is definitely a principle taught in the Bible, it is absolutely shocking to hear the number of people that teach that tithing isn’t relevant for Christians today.
Kelly: No texts given to validate this statement.
Nameless: Many of these individuals decry tithing as an “illegal and abusive practice of the Church”. They claim that if you practice tithing you are still under “Old Testament bondage”.
Kelly: We claim that tithing was only commanded to Old Covenant Israel who was forbidden to evangelize the Gentiles with missionaries and give them tithing and the rest of the law.
Nameless: The purpose of this article is not to identify every scripture in the Bible relating to tithing, but rather to try to refute some of the arguments commonly used to convince people that Christians don’t need to tithe.
Kelly: We want full scale long-term discussion by qualified church leaders. We are not afraid of open discussion and urge it.
Nameless: 1) Tithing is not necessary under this current dispensation of grace.
Martyn Lloyd-Jones once said, “If the ‘grace’ you have received does not help you to keep the law, you have not received grace.”
Kelly: Lloyd-Jones' remark makes no sense because he does not define "law." Is he a slave-owning Sabbath keeper? Are his children promised long life in Israel? Paul quoted Isaiah and Psalms in Romans 3 and called it law. Jesus used law in Matthew 5:17-19 to include all of the commandments, statutes and judgments. What part of the law do you discard? Do you kill disobedient children and not wear clothing of mixed fabric?
Nameless: While it is true that we now live in a dispensation of grace, that grace was purchased at a tremendous cost.
Kelly: When Christ began the new dispensation at Calvary, the veil in the Temple ripped open and the old law was replaced by the New Covenant law of love.
Nameless: It did not free me of all obligations to Christ. Lev. 27:30-32 emphasizes that the tithe is “holy unto the Lord”. We are commanded to “Be ye holy; for I am holy.”
Kelly: Read all of Leviticus, not merely the last five verses on tithing. Everything in the Old Covenant sacrificial service was either holy or most holy. What gives you the right to keep "holy" tithing and ignore the multitude of other "holy" and "most holy" items in Leviticus?
Nameless: ‘If the “grace” you have received does not help you to keep the law, you have not received grace’.
Kelly: Again the statement makes no sense because you do not define what you mean by "law." Romans 8:2 says "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Nameless: 2) Tithing was only an Old Testament teaching, and was not applicable in the New Testament.
Scripture records several ceremonial obligations, such as the law of animal sacrifices, which are no longer binding upon the New Testament church (Heb. 9:8–10). These were types that were fulfilled by Christ at his first advent. However, tithing was instituted for a specific purpose and not as a type.
Kelly: Tithing was instituted in Numbers 18 to sustain the Levites and priests for their service in the sanctuary. In turn they were not allowed to own or inherit property. How many tithe-receiving preachers own property? The Levites who received the first whole tithe were only servants to the priests and correspond to our UNPAID ushers, deacons, choir, musicians and even politicians in 1 Chronicles 26. Why is this not followed? The Levites gave 1% to the priests. Why are not ministers paid the 1%? The priests were to kill anybody other than themselves who dared to enter the sanctuary and worship God directly. Why is this not done?
Nameless: The Apostle Paul presented no argument against tithes as he did repeatedly against the ceremonial issues of the law (ex. meats, holy days, new moon feasts, Sabbath days, circumcision, etc.).
Kelly: Paul knew that true biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. As a rabbi he had been trained that it was sin to be paid to teach the Word. He also knew that it was illegal for Gentiles to tithe to the Temple system.
Nameless: Jesus himself even commended people for tithing (Matt. 23:23).
Kelly: That part of the New Covenant which is before Calvary belongs to the Old Covenant. Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law in order to redeem those Hebrews under the law (Gal 4:4). Matthew 23:23 is a condemnation of law-teachers for adding burdens to the law. It is a discussion of "matters of the law" and does not concern the church. Jesus could not have told his Gentiles disciples to tithe because it was illegal.
Nameless: There are many scriptures in the New Testament showing where the ceremonial law of God was fulfilled and no longer applicable to the church, but there is no scripture stating that tithing in no longer necessary.
Kelly: What a monstrous contradiction!!! Another name for the ceremonial law is the statutes or ordinances. Read Numbers 18. Tithing was the very foundation of the ceremonial law and began its function. Ephesians 2:16 and Colossians 2:14 both specifically destroy the ordinances of the law. Hebrews 7:5,12, 18 annuls the tithing-commandment of 7:5.
Nameless: It is very audacious of men today to take it upon themselves to make changes to God’s written plan for the tithe.
Kelly: It is very audacious of you to ignore the difference between the old and new covenants. The old one completely disappeared --the good with the bad. And God repeated from the old what he wanted to Church to obey after Calvary.
Nameless: 3) Tithing was only required of Jews, not Gentiles.
The vast majority of our Bible was written to the Jews. All of Jesus’ words were spoken to Jews. That does not mean we can disregard them because we are not Jews. “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)
Kelly: Again you reveal ignorance about the difference between the old and new covenants and the meaning of the dispensations. Read Exodus 19:5-6 and dozens of texts similar to them. God's promises to Israel were not God's promises to the Gentiles. You would have James and Paul in Acts 15 and 21 commanding the Gentiles to keep all of the law of Moses.
Nameless: 4) Before the Law of Moses, tithing was done on a voluntary basis.
All true worship of God is voluntary on our part. That was true before, during and after the Law of Moses.
Kelly: This is a shrouded reference to Abraham in Genesis 14. The Bible does not say that his tithe was voluntary. Tithing was a common tradition in all pagan nations of Abraham's time in Babylon, Assyria, Tyre, Phoenicia and Egypt. The local priest-kings required tithes from spoils of war.
Nameless: 5) Malachi 3 was only written to the Jews that were under the Mosaic Law.
Kelly: Correct. They had repeated the covenant blessings and curses in Nehemiah 10:29 and has told God to curse them for not tithing. The real thieves of Malachi were the dishonest priests who had been cursed in 1:13-14; 2:1-2; and 2:17 to 3:5. They had stolen the Levites' portion of the tithe in Neh 13:5-10.
Nameless: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…” (II Tim. 3:16).
Kelly: 2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nameless: Of course Malachi was writing to the Jews in his day, because the Gentiles were still the wild olive branch that had not yet been grafted in (Romans 11:17).
Kelly: Thank you. And no tithes were ever used to send out missionaries to them.
Nameless: If we are to say that the scriptures only apply to the people that they were originally written for, then we can disregard the entire Bible.
Kelly: Neither we nor dispensationalists teach that. 2 Tim 2:15 … rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nameless: 6) It is impossible to give tithes to the one true High Priest and anyone else collecting tithes under grace is a fraud and a robber. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt. 25:40) It is true that we are not able to physically give our tithes to Christ, and he has no need of them anyway.
Kelly: You miss the point entirely. Both the OT temple and priesthood have been replaced, not by pastors, but by the priesthood of every believer and the temple of God is within each believer. We do not tithe to ourselves.
Nameless: He owns the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalms 50:10). However, he has established a church that bears his name and is his representation in the earth.
Kelly: God also owned the cattle on a thousand hills in the Old Covenant but only accepted tithes from inside Israel. These statements are not reasons for New Covenant tithing.
Nameless: 7) Those that tithe are denying that Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. There was a law of God in place long before the Mosaic Law was instituted. For example, God instructed Noah regarding the number of animals he was to take into the ark. He differentiated between the “clean” and the “unclean” animals. The Bible does not record the law defining such unclean animals, until Leviticus 11. Yet, that law was already in existence in Noah’s time.
Kelly: What do you say ended at Calvary? Do you think Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law? Do you eat pork but still tithe? Isn't that inconsistent? If you tithe, do you forbid your tithe-recipients from owning property? Where is your consistency?
Nameless: Similarly, the principle of tithing preceded the establishment of God’s covenant with ancient Israel and it did not cease with the establishment of the second or new covenant!
Kelly: The fact that something is very common and very old does not make it an eternal moral principle. Idolatry, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, multiple wives and unclean food also preceded the written covenant. If the Old Covenant existed as a unit before Moses, then why did God say it was unique to Israel?
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 23:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
………………………..
Nameless: 8) A pagan Roman Catholic Church established tithing centuries after the Bible was written.
This is a very weak argument since there are so many scriptures in the Bible that shows God’s people observing the principle of tithing.
Kelly: There is not a single text for the Church after Calvary where tithing is commanded. There is not a single legitimate church historian who agrees that the early church taught tithing in the first centuries.
Nameless: The truth is God himself established tithing in the book of Genesis (Gen. 14:20).
Kelly: Nothing, absolutely nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any Christian church today: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) not holy food from inside Israel, (3) only once recorded, (4) he kept nothing and (5) he returned the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Nameless: 9) Only Levites could collect tithes and since the Levitical priesthood has ended, so has tithing. This argument is based on the assumption that God gave the tithe eternally and unconditionally to the Levites. The Bible does not say that.
Kelly: It certainly does in Numbers 18. And the Levites were only servants to the priests. Do you give tithes to your ushers, deacons, choir and musicians?
Nameless: When we tithe, we are giving it to the Lord and not to man. Man only uses it. In Malachi 3, Israel was not robbing the Levites of tithes – they were robbing God.
Kelly: They were robbing both.
Nameless: The ability to receive tithes was not just based on ancestral heritage.
Kelly: If you are speaking of true holy biblical tithes from the holy land, it was based on ancestral heritage in Numbers 18.
Nameless: The Bible even records some examples of individuals receiving tithes that were not Levites. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek (Gen. 14:18-20) and he obviously was not a Levite since Levi would not be born until many years later.
Kelly: These were not holy tithes and would not have been accepted inside the Temple system under the Law. They were tithes from pagan spoils of war which were expected to be given to one's local priest-king.
Nameless: There were some who came and brought their tithes to Elisha (II Kings 4:42).
Kelly: These were freewill offerings. Unless prophets were Levites they were not allowed to accept tithes.
Nameless: 10) Only food products from the land were “titheable”; money was never a “titheable” item. There is certainly no scripture that excludes money as a “titheable” item.
Kelly: There are 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
Nameless: In fact, the scriptures say that you are to give tithes of all your increase (II Chron. 31:5).
Kelly: Read the whole chapter. Tithes are described in detail in 2 Chronicles 31 as food. Also read all of the "increase" texts. The "increase" could only comes from God's miracle hand and not from what man produced.
Nameless: In the agricultural society of Moses day, the primary source of wealth for people was their crops and animals. This was their source of income. God is laying out a principle that you are to tithe from your source of income.
Kelly: Wrong. Money occurs over 30 times in Genesis and 44 times before the tithe in Leviticus. Money was essential for sanctuary worship and many sanctuary offerings. Yet money is never included in any description of tithes.
Nameless: 11) Giving offerings has replaced tithing, and you only need to give what you feel is appropriate for your situation.
Kelly: You water down our objection. The Christian is a new creation and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who gives him a desire to give sacrificially.
Nameless: “Proportional giving” is a concept that is impossible for Christians to fulfill. We can never give back to the Lord in proportion to how he as blessed us. If we gave everything we had, we would still fall far short.
Kelly: Neat. You change the biblical definition of "proportional giving." According to 2 Cor 8:12-14 it means that many give more than 10% while others cannot give that much. It is equality giving. We give proportionally as the Holy Spirit moves our yielded heart to support gospel causes. We do not give out of fear or being cursed.
Nameless: In addition, offerings were not a New Testament creation designed to replace tithing as some would want you to believe. In fact, the giving of offerings was taught in the Old Testament in addition to paying your tithes.
Kelly: Read all of Exodus. Freewill offerings were given before the decision was made to separate Levi because of the golden calf incident. According to Exodus 19:5-6 God's original purpose was for everybody to be a priest and no tithing would have been needed. That purpose was re-instated in 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Nameless: The children of Israel were required to bring an offering when they came up to the Temple three times a year (II Chron. 8:13). Giving offerings is not to be in place of your tithes, but in addition to it.
Kelly: Those who worked as food producers inside Israel gave both required tithes and extra freewill offerings. Those who did not produce food from inside Israel only gave freewill offerings. Those traveling from outside Israel for the three annual feasts had nothing tithe-able.
Nameless: The Israelites had robbed God of “tithes and offerings” (Mal. 3:8).
Kelly: You ignore the context of Nehemiah 10:37-39; 13:6-10 and Malachi 1:13-14; 2:1-2; 2:17 to 3:5. The dishonest priests had robbed God of both because they had received the good tithes and refused to give them as vow offerings per Malachi 1:1-14.
Nameless: If they were one and the same, this passage would not make sense.
Kelly: You ignore the above texts.
Nameless: In conclusion, people can come up with all kinds of arguments to not do something that they don’t want to do.
Kelly: Nobody who lives outside of Israel and is not a food producer can possibly give a biblical tithe.
Nameless: Due to space, I have not even addressed some of the weaker arguments sometimes used (ex. tithes were suppose to be brought into the storehouse and the New Testament church has no storehouse).
Kelly: The first church had no buildings of its own for over 200 years after Calvary and even then not really until Constantine's time. Tithing did not become church law until AD 777. You also ignore Nehemiah 10:37b when compared to Neh 13:5. The temple really had only two small storerooms because the tithe was taken to the Levitical cities.
Nameless: From studying the scriptures, I strongly believe that tithing is still relevant for our day. It was instituted as a method to support the work of God and to be a vehicle by which God could bless his people. Both of which we still need today.
KellY: Then you will continue to dialog. Again I remind your of Numbers 18. If you accept tithes under the above premise "to support the work of God" then you must accept the entire premise: (1) forfeit property rights, (2) give tithes to ushers, deacons, etc, (3) accept only 1% for ministers, (4) only allow ministers inside the sanctuary and (5) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
http://www.echristianfinance.com/2009/08/a-defense-of-tithing/
Rebuttal of eChristian Finance by Russell E Kellyk
A Defense of Tithing
Nameless: Since tithing is definitely a principle taught in the Bible, it is absolutely shocking to hear the number of people that teach that tithing isn’t relevant for Christians today.
Kelly: No texts given to validate this statement.
Nameless: Many of these individuals decry tithing as an “illegal and abusive practice of the Church”. They claim that if you practice tithing you are still under “Old Testament bondage”.
Kelly: We claim that tithing was only commanded to Old Covenant Israel who was forbidden to evangelize the Gentiles with missionaries and give them tithing and the rest of the law.
Nameless: The purpose of this article is not to identify every scripture in the Bible relating to tithing, but rather to try to refute some of the arguments commonly used to convince people that Christians don’t need to tithe.
Kelly: We want full scale long-term discussion by qualified church leaders. We are not afraid of open discussion and urge it.
Nameless: 1) Tithing is not necessary under this current dispensation of grace.
Martyn Lloyd-Jones once said, “If the ‘grace’ you have received does not help you to keep the law, you have not received grace.”
Kelly: Lloyd-Jones' remark makes no sense because he does not define "law." Is he a slave-owning Sabbath keeper? Are his children promised long life in Israel? Paul quoted Isaiah and Psalms in Romans 3 and called it law. Jesus used law in Matthew 5:17-19 to include all of the commandments, statutes and judgments. What part of the law do you discard? Do you kill disobedient children and not wear clothing of mixed fabric?
Nameless: While it is true that we now live in a dispensation of grace, that grace was purchased at a tremendous cost.
Kelly: When Christ began the new dispensation at Calvary, the veil in the Temple ripped open and the old law was replaced by the New Covenant law of love.
Nameless: It did not free me of all obligations to Christ. Lev. 27:30-32 emphasizes that the tithe is “holy unto the Lord”. We are commanded to “Be ye holy; for I am holy.”
Kelly: Read all of Leviticus, not merely the last five verses on tithing. Everything in the Old Covenant sacrificial service was either holy or most holy. What gives you the right to keep "holy" tithing and ignore the multitude of other "holy" and "most holy" items in Leviticus?
Nameless: ‘If the “grace” you have received does not help you to keep the law, you have not received grace’.
Kelly: Again the statement makes no sense because you do not define what you mean by "law." Romans 8:2 says "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Nameless: 2) Tithing was only an Old Testament teaching, and was not applicable in the New Testament.
Scripture records several ceremonial obligations, such as the law of animal sacrifices, which are no longer binding upon the New Testament church (Heb. 9:8–10). These were types that were fulfilled by Christ at his first advent. However, tithing was instituted for a specific purpose and not as a type.
Kelly: Tithing was instituted in Numbers 18 to sustain the Levites and priests for their service in the sanctuary. In turn they were not allowed to own or inherit property. How many tithe-receiving preachers own property? The Levites who received the first whole tithe were only servants to the priests and correspond to our UNPAID ushers, deacons, choir, musicians and even politicians in 1 Chronicles 26. Why is this not followed? The Levites gave 1% to the priests. Why are not ministers paid the 1%? The priests were to kill anybody other than themselves who dared to enter the sanctuary and worship God directly. Why is this not done?
Nameless: The Apostle Paul presented no argument against tithes as he did repeatedly against the ceremonial issues of the law (ex. meats, holy days, new moon feasts, Sabbath days, circumcision, etc.).
Kelly: Paul knew that true biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. As a rabbi he had been trained that it was sin to be paid to teach the Word. He also knew that it was illegal for Gentiles to tithe to the Temple system.
Nameless: Jesus himself even commended people for tithing (Matt. 23:23).
Kelly: That part of the New Covenant which is before Calvary belongs to the Old Covenant. Jesus was born under the jurisdiction of the law in order to redeem those Hebrews under the law (Gal 4:4). Matthew 23:23 is a condemnation of law-teachers for adding burdens to the law. It is a discussion of "matters of the law" and does not concern the church. Jesus could not have told his Gentiles disciples to tithe because it was illegal.
Nameless: There are many scriptures in the New Testament showing where the ceremonial law of God was fulfilled and no longer applicable to the church, but there is no scripture stating that tithing in no longer necessary.
Kelly: What a monstrous contradiction!!! Another name for the ceremonial law is the statutes or ordinances. Read Numbers 18. Tithing was the very foundation of the ceremonial law and began its function. Ephesians 2:16 and Colossians 2:14 both specifically destroy the ordinances of the law. Hebrews 7:5,12, 18 annuls the tithing-commandment of 7:5.
Nameless: It is very audacious of men today to take it upon themselves to make changes to God’s written plan for the tithe.
Kelly: It is very audacious of you to ignore the difference between the old and new covenants. The old one completely disappeared --the good with the bad. And God repeated from the old what he wanted to Church to obey after Calvary.
Nameless: 3) Tithing was only required of Jews, not Gentiles.
The vast majority of our Bible was written to the Jews. All of Jesus’ words were spoken to Jews. That does not mean we can disregard them because we are not Jews. “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4)
Kelly: Again you reveal ignorance about the difference between the old and new covenants and the meaning of the dispensations. Read Exodus 19:5-6 and dozens of texts similar to them. God's promises to Israel were not God's promises to the Gentiles. You would have James and Paul in Acts 15 and 21 commanding the Gentiles to keep all of the law of Moses.
Nameless: 4) Before the Law of Moses, tithing was done on a voluntary basis.
All true worship of God is voluntary on our part. That was true before, during and after the Law of Moses.
Kelly: This is a shrouded reference to Abraham in Genesis 14. The Bible does not say that his tithe was voluntary. Tithing was a common tradition in all pagan nations of Abraham's time in Babylon, Assyria, Tyre, Phoenicia and Egypt. The local priest-kings required tithes from spoils of war.
Nameless: 5) Malachi 3 was only written to the Jews that were under the Mosaic Law.
Kelly: Correct. They had repeated the covenant blessings and curses in Nehemiah 10:29 and has told God to curse them for not tithing. The real thieves of Malachi were the dishonest priests who had been cursed in 1:13-14; 2:1-2; and 2:17 to 3:5. They had stolen the Levites' portion of the tithe in Neh 13:5-10.
Nameless: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…” (II Tim. 3:16).
Kelly: 2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nameless: Of course Malachi was writing to the Jews in his day, because the Gentiles were still the wild olive branch that had not yet been grafted in (Romans 11:17).
Kelly: Thank you. And no tithes were ever used to send out missionaries to them.
Nameless: If we are to say that the scriptures only apply to the people that they were originally written for, then we can disregard the entire Bible.
Kelly: Neither we nor dispensationalists teach that. 2 Tim 2:15 … rightly dividing the word of truth.
Nameless: 6) It is impossible to give tithes to the one true High Priest and anyone else collecting tithes under grace is a fraud and a robber. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt. 25:40) It is true that we are not able to physically give our tithes to Christ, and he has no need of them anyway.
Kelly: You miss the point entirely. Both the OT temple and priesthood have been replaced, not by pastors, but by the priesthood of every believer and the temple of God is within each believer. We do not tithe to ourselves.
Nameless: He owns the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalms 50:10). However, he has established a church that bears his name and is his representation in the earth.
Kelly: God also owned the cattle on a thousand hills in the Old Covenant but only accepted tithes from inside Israel. These statements are not reasons for New Covenant tithing.
Nameless: 7) Those that tithe are denying that Christ fulfilled the law of Moses. There was a law of God in place long before the Mosaic Law was instituted. For example, God instructed Noah regarding the number of animals he was to take into the ark. He differentiated between the “clean” and the “unclean” animals. The Bible does not record the law defining such unclean animals, until Leviticus 11. Yet, that law was already in existence in Noah’s time.
Kelly: What do you say ended at Calvary? Do you think Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law? Do you eat pork but still tithe? Isn't that inconsistent? If you tithe, do you forbid your tithe-recipients from owning property? Where is your consistency?
Nameless: Similarly, the principle of tithing preceded the establishment of God’s covenant with ancient Israel and it did not cease with the establishment of the second or new covenant!
Kelly: The fact that something is very common and very old does not make it an eternal moral principle. Idolatry, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, multiple wives and unclean food also preceded the written covenant. If the Old Covenant existed as a unit before Moses, then why did God say it was unique to Israel?
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 23:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
………………………..
Nameless: 8) A pagan Roman Catholic Church established tithing centuries after the Bible was written.
This is a very weak argument since there are so many scriptures in the Bible that shows God’s people observing the principle of tithing.
Kelly: There is not a single text for the Church after Calvary where tithing is commanded. There is not a single legitimate church historian who agrees that the early church taught tithing in the first centuries.
Nameless: The truth is God himself established tithing in the book of Genesis (Gen. 14:20).
Kelly: Nothing, absolutely nothing Abraham did concerning tithes is followed by any Christian church today: (1) only pagan spoils of war, (2) not holy food from inside Israel, (3) only once recorded, (4) he kept nothing and (5) he returned the 90% to the king of Sodom.
Nameless: 9) Only Levites could collect tithes and since the Levitical priesthood has ended, so has tithing. This argument is based on the assumption that God gave the tithe eternally and unconditionally to the Levites. The Bible does not say that.
Kelly: It certainly does in Numbers 18. And the Levites were only servants to the priests. Do you give tithes to your ushers, deacons, choir and musicians?
Nameless: When we tithe, we are giving it to the Lord and not to man. Man only uses it. In Malachi 3, Israel was not robbing the Levites of tithes – they were robbing God.
Kelly: They were robbing both.
Nameless: The ability to receive tithes was not just based on ancestral heritage.
Kelly: If you are speaking of true holy biblical tithes from the holy land, it was based on ancestral heritage in Numbers 18.
Nameless: The Bible even records some examples of individuals receiving tithes that were not Levites. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek (Gen. 14:18-20) and he obviously was not a Levite since Levi would not be born until many years later.
Kelly: These were not holy tithes and would not have been accepted inside the Temple system under the Law. They were tithes from pagan spoils of war which were expected to be given to one's local priest-king.
Nameless: There were some who came and brought their tithes to Elisha (II Kings 4:42).
Kelly: These were freewill offerings. Unless prophets were Levites they were not allowed to accept tithes.
Nameless: 10) Only food products from the land were “titheable”; money was never a “titheable” item. There is certainly no scripture that excludes money as a “titheable” item.
Kelly: There are 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Tithes were always only food from inside Israel.
Nameless: In fact, the scriptures say that you are to give tithes of all your increase (II Chron. 31:5).
Kelly: Read the whole chapter. Tithes are described in detail in 2 Chronicles 31 as food. Also read all of the "increase" texts. The "increase" could only comes from God's miracle hand and not from what man produced.
Nameless: In the agricultural society of Moses day, the primary source of wealth for people was their crops and animals. This was their source of income. God is laying out a principle that you are to tithe from your source of income.
Kelly: Wrong. Money occurs over 30 times in Genesis and 44 times before the tithe in Leviticus. Money was essential for sanctuary worship and many sanctuary offerings. Yet money is never included in any description of tithes.
Nameless: 11) Giving offerings has replaced tithing, and you only need to give what you feel is appropriate for your situation.
Kelly: You water down our objection. The Christian is a new creation and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit who gives him a desire to give sacrificially.
Nameless: “Proportional giving” is a concept that is impossible for Christians to fulfill. We can never give back to the Lord in proportion to how he as blessed us. If we gave everything we had, we would still fall far short.
Kelly: Neat. You change the biblical definition of "proportional giving." According to 2 Cor 8:12-14 it means that many give more than 10% while others cannot give that much. It is equality giving. We give proportionally as the Holy Spirit moves our yielded heart to support gospel causes. We do not give out of fear or being cursed.
Nameless: In addition, offerings were not a New Testament creation designed to replace tithing as some would want you to believe. In fact, the giving of offerings was taught in the Old Testament in addition to paying your tithes.
Kelly: Read all of Exodus. Freewill offerings were given before the decision was made to separate Levi because of the golden calf incident. According to Exodus 19:5-6 God's original purpose was for everybody to be a priest and no tithing would have been needed. That purpose was re-instated in 1 Peter 2:9-10.
Nameless: The children of Israel were required to bring an offering when they came up to the Temple three times a year (II Chron. 8:13). Giving offerings is not to be in place of your tithes, but in addition to it.
Kelly: Those who worked as food producers inside Israel gave both required tithes and extra freewill offerings. Those who did not produce food from inside Israel only gave freewill offerings. Those traveling from outside Israel for the three annual feasts had nothing tithe-able.
Nameless: The Israelites had robbed God of “tithes and offerings” (Mal. 3:8).
Kelly: You ignore the context of Nehemiah 10:37-39; 13:6-10 and Malachi 1:13-14; 2:1-2; 2:17 to 3:5. The dishonest priests had robbed God of both because they had received the good tithes and refused to give them as vow offerings per Malachi 1:1-14.
Nameless: If they were one and the same, this passage would not make sense.
Kelly: You ignore the above texts.
Nameless: In conclusion, people can come up with all kinds of arguments to not do something that they don’t want to do.
Kelly: Nobody who lives outside of Israel and is not a food producer can possibly give a biblical tithe.
Nameless: Due to space, I have not even addressed some of the weaker arguments sometimes used (ex. tithes were suppose to be brought into the storehouse and the New Testament church has no storehouse).
Kelly: The first church had no buildings of its own for over 200 years after Calvary and even then not really until Constantine's time. Tithing did not become church law until AD 777. You also ignore Nehemiah 10:37b when compared to Neh 13:5. The temple really had only two small storerooms because the tithe was taken to the Levitical cities.
Nameless: From studying the scriptures, I strongly believe that tithing is still relevant for our day. It was instituted as a method to support the work of God and to be a vehicle by which God could bless his people. Both of which we still need today.
KellY: Then you will continue to dialog. Again I remind your of Numbers 18. If you accept tithes under the above premise "to support the work of God" then you must accept the entire premise: (1) forfeit property rights, (2) give tithes to ushers, deacons, etc, (3) accept only 1% for ministers, (4) only allow ministers inside the sanctuary and (5) kill anybody who dares to worship God directly.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
