Read this article and give me your opinion. It makes no sense to me. A Civil War veteran's child is receiving $73.00 per month! Look at the chart!!!
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-08/civil-war-vets-pension-still-remains-on-governments-payroll-151-years-after-last-shot-fired
It does not say "Veterans who retired after 20 years" ---- all veterans and their spouses and children!!!
russkellyphd@yahoo.com
Saturday, August 20, 2016
Thursday, August 04, 2016
RUSSELL E KELLY REBUTS DAVID JARZABEK ON TITHING, PART 2
DAVID
P JARzABEK REBUTTED ON TITHING (PART 2) BY RUSSELL KELLY, August 4, 2016
https://vimeo.com/176880842, Jul 29,
2016
DAVID
P. JARZABEK: I skipped chapters 28 through 31 because “they add little to the
debate on tithing” and “it is the Scriptures that determine doctrine and not
history.”
RUSSELL
EARL KELLY: Chapter 28 is on Acts 20:16-35 at the end of Paul’s 3 missionary
journeys. It proves that Paul preferred to be self-supporting and proves that
he even encouraged other church elders to follow his example (20:35). Although
I agree that full-time gospel workers are often beneficial, it is not commanded
in God’s Word. Next, chapter 29 is the Secular History of Tithing. It proves
that tithing was not taught by the vast majority of early church fathers and
that they were not supported by tithes. It proves that tithing did not enter
the Christian church as a doctrine for over 500 years after Calvaryand first
became a church law in A. D. 777. It traces tithing in the U. S. A. to the
1870s.
David:
[On chapter 15, Luke 18:9-17, pages 122-125] “Dr. Kelly and others say that
tithing was a matter of giving to the poor.”
Russ:
This is a lie. I have never taught such. Read my book. The first Levitical
tithe went to the Levites and priests; part of the second festival tithe went
to the poor; and the entire third-year tithe went to the poor. Both the second
and third tithe anticipated that Levites would be among its recipients as part
of the poor.
David:
“He never says ‘give to the temple’ but ‘give to the poor.’
Russ:
Another lie because it is out of context. Read the bottom of page 123. In my
discussion of Luke 18:18-23 about the rich young ruler, I wrote in bold print
“Notice that Jesus did not say to the rich young ruler, “Sell all that you
have, pay tithes to the priests, and give the rest to the poor.”
David:
“What we did see in the New Testament church is offering after offering to help
the poor saints in Jerusalem.”
Russ:
That is correct. We did not see any discussion of tithing. The word only
appears in Paul’s writings in Hebrews 7. The HOLY tithe was still only food
from inside HOLY Israel (16 texts, including Mt 23:23), Paul would never ask
tithes from Gentiles outside HOLY Israel.
David:
[On Chapter 16, Acts 15 and 21, the Jerusalem Councils, pages 126-132.]
“This
chapter deals with that part of the law of Moses which the new converted
Gentiles were supposed to keep – actually
none of it.”
Russ:
Correct – none of it. It restricts Gentile Christians from performing former
pagan acts which were especially offensive to Jews. Jarzabek totally ignores
Acts 21:20-21. I think he merely skimmed through the book for seemingly
contradictory phrases to rebuke. I would ask him to tell me he has read every
word of the book. Acts 21:20-21 proves that the Jewish Christians of Judea were
still supporting the temple system through tithes and offerings approximately
30 years after Calvary because they were still “zealous of the law.” Therefore
they were not supporting gospel workers with tithing. Read the texts.
David:
[On chapter 17, Hebrews 8 and 2 Corinthians 3, pages 133-139]
“Actually
the Apostle Paul did use OT principles to teach NT doctrine.”
Russ:
It would be idiocy to deny that Paul used the Old Testament since the New was
not yet in existence. However post- Calvary writers re-apply much of what the
O. T. teaches through the lens of Calvary, faith and grace. That which carries
over has been clearly taught in New Covenant terminology.
David:
Jarzabek quotes me quoting Theodore Epp, founder of Back to the Bible: “the law
of love is at the heart of the OT law system” and says ”my point.”
Russ:
He ignores my quotations from great conservative theologians such as Scofield,
Epp, Unger and Zodhiates who agree with me that tithing is not a post-Calvary
doctrine.
David:
David continues from his first rebuttal the failure to define words he uses
such as “principle,” “tithe” and “law.”
Russ:
We could never have an honest debate if he cannot define and defend his terms
from God’s Word.
David:
“I will argue that the Levitical priesthood’s main source of support was the
tithe; then why don’t we do it under the New Covenant?”
Russ:
I confidently say that commentaries written by highly educated theologians do
not say that “the priesthood’s main source of support was the tithe.” Read
Numbers 18. The priests only received one tenth of the whole tithe which went
first to their Levite servants (Num 18:21-28; Neh 10:37b-38). While the Levites
only received tithes from the people, priests received many many more benefits
from everyday temple worship.
I
proved from chapters 1 (page 8), 9 and 10 (pages 61-72) that Levites and
priests received income from numerous trades and that non-food producers inside
Israel did not tithe. Read those chapters.
David:
“Listen closely, the tithe of the new testament is radically different for it
no longer supports the Levites and the priests.”
Russ:
According to Numbers 18:20-28, the SOLE PURPOSE of the Levitical ltithe was to (partially)
support Levites and priests (Hebrews 7:5). It was never “changed” (Heb 7:12) to
gospel workers (Heb 7:18). I am angered at David’s absence of validating texts.
His “proof-texts” are “Thus saith ME! (HIMSELF!)”
David:
“I’m surprised that he [Dr. Kelly] doesn’t
notice that the tithe was for the gospel in general.”
Russ:
I await gospel texts to validate this remark. Merely saying something is true
does not make it true. One cannot respond to a non-statement.
David:
[On chapter 18, the Law of Christ, pages 140-146]
“Would
I [Dr. Kelly] support Christians who by faith response decide to give 10% of
his income to the church?”
Russ:
Of course. His 10% is a freewill choice ---not law. My question to David “Would
you deem equally welcome a poor widow who has nothing remaining after providing
shelter, medicine and food for her family?”
David:
“If the tithe is not to be used as a minimum, then what is the minimum
sacrificial offering to be used in the area of finances according to the word
of God?”
Russ:
Listen to yourself. “Sacrificial” does not set limits up or down!!! A poor
widow who gives a dollar is sacrificially giving far more than a rich man who
gives a thousand dollars. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp? Yet many
churches demand the widows’ FIRST ten per cent and send her home hungry and
cutting pills in half. If tithing were the “answer,” there would be no poverty
because everybody would tithe. Yet the largest group of “tithe-payers” is among
the poorest.
David:
“How poor does one have to be to not give at all?”
Russ:
Have you ever been so poor that you did not know where your next meal was
coming from or have anything to buy medicine with to keep you alive?. If you
have never been there (or worked street missions as I have), you have no right
to ask that question.
David:
“At what point does one give more than 10%?”
Russ:
When 10% is not missed as sacrificial. There is no post-Calvary standard. Why
don’t you explain 2 Cor 8:12-14? “For if there be first a willing mind, it is
accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. For
I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: But by an equality, that
now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their
abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality.”
This
is the “equality principle of grace giving”: There is no set standard
percentage. Each gives as he/she can; the rich give more and the poor give less
– an equality results. Now, that is fair, decent and post-Calvary.
David:
“The tithe has structure; decently and in order.”
Russ:
As a carpenter, Jesus Himself did not qualify as a tithe-payer. The “structure”
of the HOLY tithe, as found in Leviicus 27:30-34, was only food from inside
HOLY Israel. That “structure” never changed except when dishonest preachers miss-appropriated
it for themselves. “Decently” and “in order” better describes 2 Cor 8:12-14
above.
David:
[On chapter 20, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2; pages 170-175]
“Some
things have been carried over from the law to the new covenant.”
Russ:
Yes, but who and what makes that decision? You tend to leave that decision up
to every Bible student and that causes the mass confusion we see in churches
today. What is YOUR “consistent”
hermeneutic? Mine is: “That part of
pre-Calvary theology which has been brought over into the New Covenant has been
clearly RE-STATED after Calvary in terms of the New Covenant – grace and faith”
(1 Cor 9:14). Don’t criticize my
hermeneutic unless you have a better one! Be consistent. Mine is true dispensational.
David:
[On chapter 21, 1st Peter 2:9-10, the priesthood of the believer,
pages 76-180]
“The
structure of the NT leadership and the function of the tithe is completely
different from that of the Old Covenant.”
Russ:
No text. Just his own word! How does not rebut non-sense (no-sense, no logic?).
I was tempted to stop the attempted reply right here. Jarzabek is getting his
information outside of God’s Word! Yet he began this video by saying that he
was skipping chapters 28 to 31 because “they add little to the debate on
tithing” and “it is the scriptures that determine doctrine and not history.”
For him, “thus saith David Jarzabek” is his authority!
David:
After quoting Ephesians 4:11-13,he says “the kingdom of priests does not take
away the leadership of gospel workers.”
Russ:
No, it doesn’t, but your statement does not magically prove that the Bible
commands that gospel workers must be full time and must be supported by the
first 10% of one’s income either.
David:
“I believe that the New Testament is clear that the tithe is the means of
support of those who live by the gospel.”
Russ:
Again, no texts; merely a declaration of “I believe.” This approach would be
laughed out of a real debate or thrown out of a real court. I could say exactly
the opposite, but my words do not make something true or false.
David:
[On chapter 24, 1 Tim 5:17-19, Double Honor, p210-216]
|
“First
Timothy 5:17 is “not speaking of discipline.”
Russ:
Again, I get the feeling that Jarzabek has only skimmed my book. As a PH. D.
candidate, I performed my research extremely carefully. There are 17 reasons
listed in my chapter to re-inforce my conclusions. The followings are
excerpts from the book which is both whole and free online at www.tithing-russkelly.com.
|
|
|
David:
“He (Dr. Kelly) even claims that the Greek word ‘honor’ does not mean ‘salary’
even though I just read it to you”
[quotes
17, 18, not 19]
Russ:
Read my book. Jarzabek’s “salary” is found in a version which gives its
author’s opinion of every possible interpretation. It is not found in the best
literal versions.
David:
“Mt 10:10 is the norm.”
Russ:
This is foolishness. Read Matthew 10:1-10! If Matthew 10:10 is the “norm,” then
God commands gospel workers to be the poorest in the land! Matthew 10:10 is not
intended to be rules for full time gospel workers either before or after
Calvary. Why not say that Acts 20:16-34 is the norm? It would mean that only
the evangelist must work to support himself and his staff.
David:
[On chapter 25,Miscellaneous Objections: pages 217-223.]
Russ:
Jarzabek does not tell the reader how I answered the objections. That is
dishonest. Charles Stanley is a millionaire in violation of the tithing
restriction of Numbers 18:20.
David:
[On chapter 26, Chafer and Walvoord, pages 224-226.]
Russ:
Again, this is great evidence that Jarzabek has not read my book; he has merely
skimmed over it looking to places to pounce.
I
DID NOT WRITE THIS CHAPTER and Jarzabek does not seem to know that! It is written by the founder of Dallas
Theological Seminary and its top teacher – both agree with me on tithing.
David:
“First Corinthians 16:1 sounds like a command to me.”
Russ:
Yes, it is. But it is not a command to support gospel workers full-time with
the first ten percent of one’s income. Be honest.
David:
[On chapter 23 (1 Cor 16) and 27 (2 Cor 8 and 9.] “The bulk of New Testament giving
is in the Corinthian passages.”
Russ:
Yes, it is – and nowhere is tithing taught or commanded there. Most
tithe-teachers relegate these chapters to post-tithe freewill offerings. Yet
Jarzabek tries to use them to teach tithing.
David:
“Dr. Kelly, where is your post-Apostolic view of giving found in the
Scriptures?”
Russ:
Where is David Jarzabek’s “post-
Apostolic
view found in the Scripture. Facts: the New Testament ends while the Apostolic
view is still being taught!
David:
[On Jesus’ giving.][Mt 22:21; Mk 12:17; Lk 20:25.] Matt 22:21
“Render
therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things
that are God's.”
Russ:
This is Jarzabek’s cornerstone text which he often repeats to make it sound of
utmost importance. (1) According to his own favorite pro-tithing text, money
with the image of an ordinary man or in a language other than Hebrew cannot be
rendered unto God. The consequences destroy his argument. (2) God only
commanded that HOLY tithes of food from inside HOLY Israel miraculously
increased by Himself be rendered back to him. Although “money” was very common
even in Genesis and temple money was commanded for temple taxes, money was
never included in 16 texts which described the contents of the HOLY tithe. (3)
Therefore, “render to God that which is God’s cannot possibly refer to post-Calvary
tithes.
David:
“The subject was money” -- “give back to God that which is God’s in our
finances!!!” that’s the principle.”
Russ:
Yes, the subject was money but the context itself disallowed money with man’s
image and language on it!!!
David:
“The tithe came before the law, was added to the law and was outside of the law.”
Russ:
Abram’ and Jacob’s tithes were pagan in source and would not have qualified as
holy tithes under the Law (Lev 27:30-34). And there are no biblical texts which
prove that the HOLY tithe remained after the Law. Jarzabek merely declares it
so as if he were the Pope or God’s spokesman.
David:
“We mainly see it first in the priesthood
of Levi.”
Russ:
He is disallowing Abram and Jacob here.
David:
Mt 23:23 “They should continue to tithe despite that woe.”
Russ:
Of course Jesus taught tithing. The text itself (Mt 23:23) classifies the
discussion as “matters of the law”!!! If Jesus has not taught tithing to the
Levitical temple system – He would have been sinning!!!
David:
“So why should the church teach tithing --- because Jesus said so.”
Russ:
Wrong covenant; wrong priesthood; wrong description of holy tithes. Merely
David Jarzabek’s own declared conclusion.
David:
[On chapter 22, 1 Corinthians 9, pages 181-198.]
The
biblical principle of tithing is to “render unto God that which is God’s.”
Russ:
Nothing new.
David:
“The tithe is mentioned 7 times in the N. T. –more than “pastor,” “evangelist”
and “Trinity” combined.”
Russ:
Wrong. Matthew, Mark and Luke cannot be counted because they are before Calvary
in Old Covenant context. Hebrews 7 is the only use of the word after Calvary.
David:
“This chapter is the discourse on the tithe for the N. T.”
Russ:
Wrong for reasons already given several times. The word does not even occur in
First Corinthians 9. The chapter teaches that gospel workers should live by
gospel principles.
David:
Quotes me saying that “every rabbi was expected to have a trade.”
Russ:
Why did I say that? The chapter in my book gives many quotations from leading
theologians and church historians confirming this fact. Until Constantine
legalized Christianity after A. D. 300, it was illegal to be a full-time gospel
worker.
David:
“Dr. Kelly, do you tell Christians not to eat meat for the sake of the gospel?
Do you tell them not to marry?”
Russ:
Paul taught us not to offend those we are trying to convert to Christ. Would
you offend an Orthodox Jews in your home by offering him bacon? Also, Paul did
not command "no marriage"; you twist his words. We may face a time
when it is safer for gospel workers not to be married.
David:
“Dr. Kelly seems to discourage people from going into full time gospel work.
Russ:
I merely point out that the Bible does not command that gospel workers must be
full time. Not even O.T. Levites, priests, and prophets were necessarily full
time.
David:
“He (Dr. Kelly) only agrees to it if tithing is not taught.”
Russ:
Do you build your stewardship house on the rock of grace and faith or on the
rock of a false description and use of O. T. tithes?
David:
Acts 20:34 “They could have been setting up things for Paul.”
Russ:
He is referring to my chapter 28 which he claims to have skipped because of
irrelevance. If David is correct, then Paul was the only one who worked
full-time so he could support his own team and all of their needs also. Now
that would be a strange twist!
David:
“By supporting others, Paul gave the example that the NORM is to support gospel
workers!!”
Russ:
Wow! Read Acts 20:16-35. The only example I see there is that Paul himself was
SELF-SUPPORTED and that HE supported his own evangelistic team.
David:
“What reference shows Jesus doing His trade during his ministry?”
Russ:
We do not have the same mission Jesus had. I do notice that Jesus’
fishermen-disciples did not totally give up their trade. Also, Paul’s
sending-church in Antioch of Syria did not give him financial support. The only
church which regularly sent Paul money was Philippi.
David:
His quoted version adds “for a livelihood” to 1 Cor 9:6.
Russ:
How can you expect to know truth when you use a version descended from that
vastly manipulated by Westcott and Hort? They did not believe in infallible
inspiration or the ability to God to preserve His word.
David:
“The tithe and offerings is simply a wage.”
Russ:
If so, then God was grossly unfair in only requiring it from food-producers
living inside His HOLY land of Israel (Lev 27:30-34).
David:
“To me the tithe is simply setting the amount.”
Russ:
You may as well say “To me the tithe is the same thing as an airplane or
train.” Your declaration does not create truth.
David:
“First Corinthians 9:12 proves that “others were living on the tithe already.”
Russ:
No. It merely proves that other gospel workers were receiving some kind of
compensation for their ministry. It says nothing about how much or tithes.
Please stop manipulating God’s Word. Have some decency and respect its
holiness.
David:
On First Corinthians 9:13, page 186, quoting my book: “Verse 13 clearly statues
that temple workers were sustained by tithing.” contradicts your statement on
page 115 statement.”
Russ:
This is extremely important and proves once again that David Jarzabek has not
read my book but is merely skimming over it to find material to pounce upon!!!
NEITHER THE STATEMENT ATTRIBUTED TO ME ON PAGE 115 OR 186 ARE MY OPINIONS!!!
Read the book. They are my quotations and references of TITHE-ADVOCATES!!! Page 115 is quoting pro-tithe-teacher Bobby
Eklund and page 186 is my conclusion of the MINORIRY HERMENEUTIC gleaned from
many commentaries. The vast majority of commentaries support my understanding
that 9:14 refers to 9:6-13 and not merely to 9:13.
David:
“Dr. Kelly, let me introduce u to the other Dr. Kelly.”
Russ:
Jarzabek repeats his error several more times to make himself look incompetent.
David:
“The apostle Paul and Dr. Kelly agree that 9:13 is speaking of tithing.”
Russ:
No, it only “includes” tithing among many more better means of support such as
freewill offerings, firstfruits, firstborn and portions of sacrificial animals.
The ministering priests only received one per cent (1%) of the Levitical tithe
(Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:38). This part of the tithing command is totally ignored
today.
David:
“The second reason that tithing should be taught to the church is that the Lord
has commanded it.”
1 Cor
9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should
live of the gospel.
Russ:
In order for Jarzabek’s statement to be true, (1) 9:13 must only refer to
tithing and (2) 9:14 must only refer to 9:13 and not to 9:6-13. And, since
neither is true, then his conclusion is false. If Jesus Himself commanded that
gospel workers must be fully supported full-time by tithes, then Paul
deliberately disobeyed Christ. “Live off
the gospel” means live off the gospel principle of grace and faith – not live
off the Law doctrine of tithing. There are very many sources at the end of my
chapter.
David:
[On chapter 19, Hebrews 7, pages 147-169]
“Dr.
Kelly is all over the place concerning Melchizedek as a historical person and
as a type of Christ.”
Russ:
There are scores of commentaries on Hebrews. All of them are very long and very
detailed. Mine is but a small sample. My main focus is on the word “order” from
Psalm 110:4 which is quoted 7 times in Hebrews. Since Israel had no
king-priest, it was necessary to go elsewhere for a type of the “order” of
king-priest. Also, Jarzabek should learn how to pronounce “Mel-chi-ze-dek”
instead of saying “Me-chel-ze-dek.”
David:
“I want to make it clear that I believe that tithing under the law of Moses has
been abolished.”
Russ:
Were it not for his own invented description of holy tithes, Jarzabek would
have no disagreement with me.
David:
“In the O. T. a priest could not be king.”
Russ:
This is only true of Hebrew priests. Canaan was full of city-state
king-priests. Christ came after the “order” (king-priest) of Melchizedek; He
did not come to repeat his personage.
David:
“Dr. Kelly believes M. was a pagan priest who did not know the true God. I just
think that is total nonsense.”
Russ:
I first got the idea first from the Southern Baptist Wycliffe Bible Commentary.
It is also common in other commentaries. Such a position does not degrade the
emphasis on the “order” rather than on the “person.” If Melchizedek had been a
true descendant of Shem or another Hebrew, he would have certainly incorporated
YHWH somewhere into his own title.
David:
He had to have been a godly priest because Christ’s priesthood was after the
order of M.”
Russ:
No. That is precisely why Hebrews repeats Psalm 110:4 seven times concerning
the “order.” Just as Babylon is “my army” in Habakkuk and Cyrus is “my beloved”
in Isaiah 4:28, the “rank” of a pagan king-priest can be a type of Christ.
David:
“I do not have time to speak of the reasons for his view, but it has no real
backing.”
Russ:
You criticize but do not allow a defense.
David:
“What footnote do you quote to prove that Abram paid the tithe out of the
spoils? I couldn’t find it.”
Russ:
Hebrews 7:4. See 5 commentaries quoted on pages 24-25 and Hebrews
7:4 on pages 152-153. How could you miss that?
David:
“I found his wording to be the trickiest I ever read or refuted so far.”
Russ:
You ought to read some of David Jarzabek’s material.
David:
“Dr. Kelly, if you have a quote, then on what page is it given?”
Russ:
No footnote needed; see Hebrews 7:4.
David:
“The tithe was a divine spiritual transaction that God would use to validate
the priesthood of Jesus.”
Russ:
There was nothing divine or spiritual about the tithe of Abram or Jacob. They
obeyed the common law of the land practiced all around Mesopotamia as validated
by any large library with a reference section on Religion.
David:
Hebrews 7:8.
Russ:
When this was written, the Temple was still functioning. Mortal men (priests) were
accepting tithes from Levites as the representatives of God. Priests did not tithe
because they were the end of the line.
It
is impossible for me to conclude that David has read my book. Like every other
tithe-advocate I have read, he stops his discussion of Hebrews 7 at either
verse 8 or 10. Yet 7:12 clearly states that it was necessary to “change the law”
when Christ’s priesthood replaced Aaron’s. Read 7:10-19.That “change” was NOT “from
Aaron to Christ”; rather, the “change” was from Aaron to its “disannulment” in
7:18. Since “commandment,” “tithes” and “law” first occur in Hebrews in 7:5, “commandment”
in 7:18 must (at the very least) include the concept of tithing from 7:5.
Conclusion:
I will no longer reply to David Jarzabek. (1) He does not attempt to describe the
holy tithe properly. (2) He does not understand the definition of “biblical law”
or “principle.” (3) He has probably not even red my book. (4) He misquotes me
often. (5) He makes himself the validating authority for most of his
conclusions and quotes God’s Word very little. And (6) I have more important
things to do while teaching.
Russell
Earl Kelly, PHD
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