Reply to Change Worth Making: War on Bible Doctrine

Reply to Change Worth Making
War on Bible Doctrine, Mar 1, 2010

Tim

We have covered this ground before and you still seem to ignore every single point I have made.
You call tithing a “rock solid Bible truth.”
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Russ: If it is that “rock solid” then why will you and church leaders not defend it using sound heremeneutics from God's Word?
Again I boldly declare with the authority of 16 texts that HOLY biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. This was true even though money was very common in Genesis and essential for sanctuay worship. This definition remained the same 1000 years later in Malachi and 1500 years later in Matthew. Where is your proof that the basic definition ever changed?
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You describe those who disagree with you as “re-writers” and ”redefiners.”
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Russ: I contend that it is you who has “re-defined” the fundamental clear definition of th holy biblical tithe. There is probably not a church historian alive who will agree with you that biblical tithes could be the products of one’s hands or from outside God’s holy land of Israel. It is the modern preacher who has “re-written” what the Bible says about tithes in Numbers 18 to suit modern man. I state categorically that “absolutely nothing taught in the Bible before Calvary about tithing is followed by any church today –including your own.
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You state that it is a “Bible truth that Christians ought to be in the practice of voluntary tithing.”
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Russ: I reply “Defend your statementd with all of the vigor and Bible texts you can. I disagree and challenge you to an honest open in-depth discussion of the whole doctrine.
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You wrote: “The fact is that most preachers and pastors who preach and teach the tithe in conservative Bible believing churches do so out of Biblical conviction.”
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Russ: I agree. However I believe that they have never stopped to perform any detailed study of the subject and should not treat it as a taboo doctrien. These same preachers eagerly engage those who disagree with them on almost any other doctrine –except tithing. Why? Are they insecure?
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Tim: They do not legalistically twist the Scriptures in order to avoid the overriding principle of the tithe.
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Russ: Your use of “overriding principle” shows prejudice because not everybody agrees.
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Tim: In the Old Testament, the Lord showed and demonstrated for us the desire of His heart when He chastised the people of Israel for not “tithing” and “giving offerings.” We know that the desire of God’s heart is for His people to be a tithing people.
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Russ: This statement is based on the false assumption that God commanded everybody in Israel to tithe. However it only applied to food producers inside Israel. As a carpenter inside Israel, Jesus did not qualify as a tither. As a tentmaker on defiled pagan soil, Paul did not qualify either. If I am wrong, please present the proof.
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Tim: I’d be ashamed if I didn’t want to tithe.”
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Russ: You and I cannot possibly tithe unless we were giving food from inside Israel under Old Covenant conditions and were Hebrews.
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Tim: Thinking for a minute about 2 Corinthians 8:12-14 Paul made it clear that there are three things required in Biblical giving. 1.) A Willing Mind. 2.) According to that a man hath. 3.) An Equal amount.
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Russ: Your discussin of 2 Cor 8:12-14 is totally out of context. Even most tithe-teachers would say you are wrong here because (they say) it is not a discussion of tithing but freewill giving which is dIthey say) in addition to tithing.
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Tim: Tithing or not tithing if your mind is not willing, it is not accepted.
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Russ: Agreed.
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Tim: According to that a man hath. – Much or little. No one ever argues with that.
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Russ: You argue with yourself in the next statement by forcing this into a discussion of tithing.
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Tim: If I have ten dollars or ten thousand dollars worth of income a month, I am still to be a giver. I am still to give God the first and best of my ten dollars, as much as I am the the first and best of my ten thousand dollars.
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Russ: This is simply not true. The key is “sacrificial” giving. The rich person with $100,000 does not feel the stress by giving $10,000 whereas the poor person with $100 is giving sacrificially even when giving only $5.00. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

The “best” of the OT tithe was only the one per cent which went to the priests per Num 18:25-28. Why do you ignore that? The first whole Levitical tithe went to the guards, ushers, musicians, singers, animal skinners, janitors, treasurers and (later) political workers for the king per Num 3, Num 18:21-24 and 1 Chron 23 to 26. Why do you ignore that?

The tithe was never the same as the firstfruits. Firstfruits were very small token offerings per Deu 26:1-4; Neh 10:35-37 and many other texts. Why do you ignore that? The Bible commands Christians to give our FIRST to buy essential medicine, food and shelter in 1 Tim 5:8. Why do you ignore that?
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Tim: By an Equality. – “not that other men be eased ye be burdened.”
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Russ: Again, the poor person is very much indeed BURDENED by giving 5% while the rich person is not burdened by giving 20%. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
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Tim: When it comes to giving according to that a man hath, AND by an equality, the principle of the tithe fits wonderfully and perfectly into the practice of giving. When a $10/ man, and a $10,000/ man tithe, they both have “given according to their ability” AND given by “an equality.”
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Russ: Your logic is beyond my comprehension. You are forcing a wonderful grace giving principle into a legalistic giving principle.
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Tim: The bottom line is that the Tithe of the Old Testament is Principle that New Testament Christians ought to WANT to practice because it fits New Testament guidelines, and has been pictured for us as the desire of God’s heart.
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Russ: You conclusion ignores the context of 2 Corinthians 8 and 9. Tithing is not discussed in these two chapters which are addressed to a church deep inside pagan terriroty and far outside God’s HOLY land of Israel. This is a New Covenant chapter about grace-giving and is not in the context of Old Covnenat tithing in any way whatsoever.
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Tim: Now that being said, the “tithe” controversies that are continually being stirred, have lead to accusations against the office of pastor.
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Russ: Stop and study Numbers 18. The OT Levitical tithe recipients (1) were not allowed to own property, (2) were to accept tithes as food from inside Israel, (3) were to prohibit anybody else from entering the sanctaury and (4) were to KILL anybody who attempted to worship God directly. Why don’t you teach any of that? Is Numbers 18 not in the Bibles of conserative preachers?