Monday, April 05, 2010

Atheism Debat on Isa 53; 4-5-10a

Mr Babinski and Dehler

You urged me to go back and read Isaiah chapter 48 to 53 and I did –three times. It seems that you prefer to read other scholars rather than the texts themselves. We are NOT discussing other scholars. Rather we are discussing the Bible.

1. Servant is sometimes the prophet. I grant you that.
2. As a prophet servant is actually the mouthpiece for Messiah. You will not grant me that.
3. Servant is often national Israel. I grant you that.
4. Servant is MOST OFTEN “righteous Israel” – I will grant you that. Happy?
5. As “righteous Israel” servant is often the mouthpiece of Messiah. You will not grant that.
6. At very key texts it is clear to me that Messiah cannot possible be either Israel or righteous Israel. You seem unwilling to discuss these texts which refute your arguments.

48 all: God the Rock and Deliver is speaking to Israel personified.

49:1 God the Rock and Deliverer is speaking to Israel personified.

49:3 The SERVANT is Righteous Israel personified. However, this cannot be separated from 49:5-6.

• “And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

49:4 Israel personified replies to God.

**49:5 The SERVANT here cannot be only the nation because the “servant’s” calling is to “bring Jacob again to him.” It is extremely difficult to imagine the prophet speaking about himself and boasting about his own “glory” even though his message failed!

49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

***49:6 this text is extremely strong in support of the servant being Messiah. The purpose of the servant is to “to rise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel.” The SERVANT is to be a light to the Gentiles” and God’s “salvation to the end of the earth.” This cannot possibly refer to either a normal prophet or to Israel itself.

49:6 “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

49:7-26 SERVANT is righteous Israel. However righteous Israel is personified as Jesus in the NT.

50 all: God rebukes SINFUL Israel.

51:1-8 God is speaking to Righteous Israel.

***5l:9-10 The “Arm of the Lord” is NOT national Israel. It is God, the I Am, who dried up the sea and ransomed sinful national Israel. This is crucial for understanding 53:l.

52:12 God is speaking to national Israel.

52:13 MY SERVANT is either Righteous Israel or the Messiah.

52:14 “Visage-appearance was marred more than any man” is a far better description of Jesus than it is national Israel.

53:1 The “arm of the Lord” (from 51:9-10) is NOT national Israel.

53:2 The “he” and “him” refers to the “arm of the Lord” from 53:1 and not to a prophet or national Israel. Explain this. 49:9-10

53:3 The “we” is either “all of the prophets” (which is unlikely) or else the “nation Israel” decribing one who will die as a sin offering for the sins of the nation in following verses.

****53:4-8 cannot possibly refer to the nation Israel because the person is suffering as a SUBSTITUE for national Israel. He is the SERVANT 53:11.

****53:5 cannot possibly refer to a sick diseased person because Hebrew Law forbade even such animals from being sin offerings. And it cannot be national Israel because you cannot substitute for yourself. He is the SERVANT in 53:11.

• But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

****53:6 The nation Israel is “we” and “us all.” It takes a lot of faith to believe that the text is referring to an ordinary but very sick and abused person. He is the SERVANT in 53:11.

53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

****53:7 There is no OT prophet or person who meets this description. Modern Hebrews, liberals and atheists have invented an imaginary sick person to explain this prophecy. He is the SERVANT of 53:11.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

***53:8 teaches SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT. Again there is no historical prophet or person who fits this description other than Jesus. Again the nation Israel cannot be a substitute for itself. He is the SURVANT in 53:11.

***53:10 The most important qualification for a sin offering is spotlessness—sinlessness. This is definitely NOT a description of the nation Israel. He is the SERVANT in 53:11.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

**** Isa 53:11 MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT cannot possibly refer to national Israel because he bears their inquities.

****This text, Isa 53:11, must be speaking of the same person in the preceding verses and it cannot possibly refer the nation of Israel.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

****53:12 No prophet teaches that the nation Israel will die as a payment for its own sins and that such payment will constitute a sin offering. The prophets were primarily sent to rebuke Israel if its sins.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Can anybody on this forum stop talking about what others say and discuss the texts themselves in context? I am not impressed with any of your arguments. Explain the servant of Isaiah 49:5-6; 51:9-10 and 53:4-12. Explain IN CONTEXT how the nation Israel is the suffering servant as Jews teach.

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