Atheism Debate 3-5-10b

Bernie

Explain 49:5-6 in context. Explain 53:8-12 in the context of the servant of 53:11.

Abraham had enough faith in God that God would somehow work it out. God tests our faith in ways we cannot understand. I am glad that I am not Abraham.
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Russ: If God forgave sin without requiring redemption then He would be unjust and violate His character by showing mercy."

Bernie: How does this make sense?

Russ: You are who you are. God is both just and merciful. As a parent you should also be both just and merciful. Do you ever discipline your children? Why? If you do not discipline them, then you are only merciful but show no sense of justness. If you only punish them and never show mercy, then you are not true to what a good parent should be.

How many times would you allow your children to steal your car without permission and wreck it? You cannot simply keep on forgiving them (showing mercy) because that would reflect on your poor character. Sooner or later you would set down the law to them and expect some kind of obedience and restoration. And you are only a human father.

Bernie: God requires payment, so he came to earth as a man, then died on the cross to offer himself up to himself as a sacrifice?

Russ: On what grounds do you, as a parent, have to forgive your erring children and show mercy to them? On what grounds does the Governor of a State have the authority to forgive sins and commute a sentence? The Governor has authority vested in him from the State. God has authority due to His own character and he must be true to his own character.

Bernie: What makes more sense, and is obvious, is to see how the ancients came up with an idea to appease the gods because of earthquakes, floods, etc (which they thought god was sending because he was upset with them). Give the gods a gift. A fruit-basket, anything. The ultimate sacrifice is to give your child. That's why the pagan's in Moses' day sacrificed kids, to appease their god. Moses copied the idea of blood atonement from his neighbors."

Russ: I think that it is the other way around. The pagans copied God’s original plan for ONE perfect sinless sacrifice for all sin for all time. You assume that Moses, Hebrews and Christians copied pagans. I assume that pagans mimicked God’s original plan and falsified it in order to deceive the world.

Muslims and Buddhists have rituals, prayers and good works. Buddhists and Hindus have reincarnation. None of these explain why their god can and should forgive sins!

Sin does not exist without free will. Do you have free will? Do you chose to do that which you sense is correct? From a theistic viewpoint sin must imply freewill.
When you and your wife decided to birth freewill thinking children, you should have committed to caring for them, feeding them and protecting them. Well, when God decided to create you with freewill, HE made a commitment to redeem you when you sinned.

Take away freewill and you can take away God’s need to provide a path of redemption for His creation. You also take away your own commitment to die if necessary to protect your own children.

You would DIE to protect your own children, wouldn’t you? That would be a BLOOD sacrifice to insure that your own children lived. Same logic as what God did.